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Independence Referendum 2: Electric Boogaloo

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  • Independence Referendum 2: Electric Boogaloo

    Behold the glorious new thread to discuss the imminent and/or fantasy (depending on your point of view) second Scottish Independence Referendum, rather that cluttering up the Brexit thread with will they/won't they bickering.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39331244

    Holyrood's Brexit minister has claimed the UK government "forgot" to tell him the date for when it was going to trigger Article 50. Prime Minister Theresa May said the UK would start the process of leaving the European Union next Wednesday.
    The announcement will set in place a two-year negotiation process.
    But Michael Russell, who is leading the Scottish government's Brexit talks with Westminster, said he only found out the date when it was reported by the BBC.
    So he's annoyed he didn't get an announcement warning him about the upcoming announcement?

  • #2
    Maybe pro-independence Scots can explain why they don't want to be a part of the UK, but DO want to be a part of the EU? That's rather silly.

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    • #3
      I'll just restate what I already said. There is likely going to be too much opposition to Scotland in the EU from countries that do not want regions to be rewarded for gaining their independence thru a referendum. Some EU countries don't even recognize Kosovo, and it is not hard to guess why.

      Secondly, Scotland (or the rest of the UK for that matter) doesn't exactly know what type of deal(s) there will be between the EU & the UK. It is possible that a future deal connects Scotland more to the EU than an independent Scotland would as it is not sure how EU MS will react to that.

      Thirdly, I wonder whether or not there is something in between the status quo and independence. Quite frankly I do not really get the desire for independence. The UK is a free country, one of the freest in the world in fact. The devolution grants Scotland powers that is beyond what most non-federal states grant their regions. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Wouldn't it be wiser to opt for incremental steps: lobby for more autonomy in this or that field and see what that does for Scotland over the years?

      How many scientists and scholars have analyzed the financial consequences?

      Originally posted by Spartan10k View Post
      Maybe pro-independence Scots can explain why they don't want to be a part of the UK, but DO want to be a part of the EU? That's rather silly.
      There are few countries in the world that have as weak of a "government" as the EU with as little competences. It's a much, much weaker central government. But it is pretty much a non-issue since in the hypothetical scenario of Scotland's independence it is highly unlikely they will join the EU in the first years to come, if ever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by OrangeWolf View Post
        There are few countries in the world that have as weak of a "government" as the EU with as little competences. It's a much, much weaker central government. But it is pretty much a non-issue since in the hypothetical scenario of Scotland's independence it is highly unlikely they will join the EU in the first years to come, if ever.
        EU is weak as long as you have money or power. Netherlands is small but they have money. Spain doesn't have money but it is a big country and thus powerful. Greece or Portugal have neither so we might as well close down our Parliaments and have praetors from Brussels take tribute in slaves and cattle.

        I suspect Scotland will be closer to the latter than the former which is why I think what they are doing is stupid. I suspect that after a decade of EU imposed austerity, most of Scotland would be empty of young people as they will emigrate to England or the rest of EU, most of the infrastructure will be owned by German companies and the most touristic places will become small English colonies as they will be buying cheap to have a holiday home in the Highlands or Isle of Skye etc. etc.

        It's a pity because I really like Scotland, I am driving up to Edinburgh this weekend for the first time and I am very excited.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by OrangeWolf View Post

          How many scientists and scholars have analyzed the financial consequences?
          And just to reiterate those.

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...endence-would/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Vorian View Post

            EU is weak as long as you have money or power. Netherlands is small but they have money. Spain doesn't have money but it is a big country and thus powerful. Greece or Portugal have neither so we might as well close down our Parliaments and have praetors from Brussels take tribute in slaves and cattle.

            I suspect Scotland will be closer to the latter than the former which is why I think what they are doing is stupid. I suspect that after a decade of EU imposed austerity, most of Scotland would be empty of young people as they will emigrate to England or the rest of EU, most of the infrastructure will be owned by German companies and the most touristic places will become small English colonies as they will be buying cheap to have a holiday home in the Highlands or Isle of Skye etc. etc.

            It's a pity because I really like Scotland, I am driving up to Edinburgh this weekend for the first time and I am very excited.
            Basically the EU will tell them, right, no more free higher education and prescription drugs, because you can't afford it.

            It should also be noted that on independence Scottish kids would automatically lose the right to free higher education in rUK universities unless Scotland stumps up the money and pays us for it in full. That basically takes some of the best universities in the world off the table for Scottish students.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Spartan10k View Post
              Maybe pro-independence Scots can explain why they don't want to be a part of the UK, but DO want to be a part of the EU? That's rather silly.
              They won't! It's a great question.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Spartan10k View Post
                Maybe pro-independence Scots can explain why they don't want to be a part of the UK, but DO want to be a part of the EU? That's rather silly.
                we are keep getting told by Brexiters we will gain the powers to hand them back to Brussels this graph shows the reality for Scotland within the UK



                when the Union of was formed in 1707 it was meant to be a union of equals .. it never was and the people never had a say the vast majority of Scots were hostile to a union with England

                fast forward 300 years .... i have been on this planet 47 years more than 30 of those years Scotland has been governed by a party we have never voted for and have rejected since the 2nd half of the 1950s ... currently we are being governed by a party with just 1 MP out of 59 MPs elected in Scotland and this is meant to pass off as democracy ... the people of 1 country decides for the other 3 which direction they are going at the same time we are constantly been ridiculed by the UK Establishment and Media as subsidy junkies.

                They have said it that often they state it as fact (backed by figures from companies founded by Conservative politicians GERS and IFS) and without our oil and gas industry .. they have spunked over £400 billion of our oil and gas reserves and they claim we are subsidy junkies, we have no control of our economy or wealth creation or say in where the UK's WMDs are based ie Scotland ... during the last referendum they had the EU at the centre of their campaign "to guarantee continued EU Citizenship vote No" and then their was the promise of a federal UK which won them the referendum and what we received afterwards came no where near what was promised ... to cut things short the UK and it's establishment are liars and without honour/honor they like to portray themselves as gentleman ... they are the *rap i scrape from the sole of my boots

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tizer View Post
                  when the Union of was formed in 1707 it was meant to be a union of equals .. it never was and the people never had a say the vast majority of Scots were hostile to a union with England
                  Not it wasn't. Such an arrangement was, still is, and always will be, impossible in every sense of the word. Only your delusions insist to the contrary. It's like the UK expecting that, beyond the media platitudes, our special relationship with the US constitutes a real partnership of absolute equals...If you feel you have been shortchanged by the Union then it is only the result of your own unrealistic expectations.

                  Out of morbid curiosity though, just how did you see the mythical "union of equals" working in practice?
                  Last edited by ~UNiOnJaCk~; 21-03-2017, 09:52 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tizer View Post

                    we are keep getting told by Brexiters we will gain the powers to hand them back to Brussels this graph shows the reality for Scotland within the UK



                    when the Union of was formed in 1707 it was meant to be a union of equals .. it never was and the people never had a say the vast majority of Scots were hostile to a union with England

                    fast forward 300 years .... i have been on this planet 47 years more than 30 of those years Scotland has been governed by a party we have never voted for and have rejected since the 2nd half of the 1950s ... currently we are being governed by a party with just 1 MP out of 59 MPs elected in Scotland and this is meant to pass off as democracy ... the people of 1 country decides for the other 3 which direction they are going at the same time we are constantly been ridiculed by the UK Establishment and Media as subsidy junkies.

                    They have said it that often they state it as fact (backed by figures from companies founded by Conservative politicians GERS and IFS) and without our oil and gas industry .. they have spunked over £400 billion of our oil and gas reserves and they claim we are subsidy junkies, we have no control of our economy or wealth creation or say in where the UK's WMDs are based ie Scotland ... during the last referendum they had the EU at the centre of their campaign "to guarantee continued EU Citizenship vote No" and then their was the promise of a federal UK which won them the referendum and what we received afterwards came no where near what was promised ... to cut things short the UK and it's establishment are liars and without honour/honor they like to portray themselves as gentleman ... they are the *rap i scrape from the sole of my boots
                    So you're still putting your finger in your ears.

                    We'll see how many seats Sturgeon has after the next general election. Only 46% of Scots voted SNP in 2016 (63 of 129 seats), which isn't enough to form a government if no one else joins her in 2020.

                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2...otland/results

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JHomes View Post
                      So you're still putting your finger in your ears.

                      We'll see how many seats Sturgeon has after the next general election. Only 46% of Scots voted SNP in 2016 (63 of 129 seats), which isn't enough to form a government if no one else joins her in 2020.

                      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2...otland/results
                      support is now at 53% for the SNP and the 2016 election result was the largest ever vote for a single Party 250K more than 2011 the SNP won 59 out of 73 FPTP and only 4 seats from proportional representation out of 56 seats even though the SNP had more votes than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems combined

                      keep dreaming the UK will be finished soon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tizer View Post

                        support is now at 53% for the SNP and the 2016 election result was the largest ever vote for a single Party 250K more than 2011 the SNP won 59 out of 73 FPTP and only 4 seats from proportional representation out of 56 seats even though the SNP had more votes than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems combined

                        keep dreaming the UK will be finished soon
                        You know. The last time Scotland was independent...it wasn't exactly rich. It wasn't powerful or particularly relevant either. Now I mean if you're willing to go back to that to satisfy your pride, well that's something I understand all too well. Just be aware and prepared for the fact that the state of the average Scot will change drastically.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tizer View Post

                          support is now at 53% for the SNP and the 2016 election result was the largest ever vote for a single Party 250K more than 2011 the SNP won 59 out of 73 FPTP and only 4 seats from proportional representation out of 56 seats even though the SNP had more votes than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems combined

                          keep dreaming the UK will be finished soon
                          Oh right, based on these newspaper polls, which have never been right once recently. They predicted a 53% win for independence last time too.

                          That was 2011, this is 2016. I think in 2011, Scots were like, "nah, she will ney really go for independence." And in 2016, it was more like, "Chreest, this woman REALLY is crazy."

                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2...otland/results

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tizer View Post

                            support is now at 53% for the SNP and the 2016 election result was the largest ever vote for a single Party 250K more than 2011 the SNP won 59 out of 73 FPTP and only 4 seats from proportional representation out of 56 seats even though the SNP had more votes than the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems combined

                            keep dreaming the UK will be finished soon
                            People will happily vote for any old tossers so long as they know that there will be no consequences from it - and as you have mentioned the SNP can win every seat in Scotland and still be irrelevant to the governing of the UK. But every time they've been asked to make a decision with visible and immediate consequences (independence and Brexit to name two), they've moved away from the idiots and made decisions based on what effect it will have on them. So long as the SNP keeps living in fantasy land with make-believe economics and policies and promises they'll get the same results.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              TheKiwi's such a hater and he's not even English.
                              C'mon man, let us Scots have our freedom!

                              Comment

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