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Finland tests universal basic income

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RetOld View Post
    EiB L/T: If they're replacing benefits with a stable 560€ then i can't wait since it'll be the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre all over again only economically imposed. I don't think anyone can survive here with appartment rents being 500-1000€ a month depending on the size of your family and availability. Kontula has appartments for like 700€+ which is insane.

    Since it's the part of the city that needs intervention from Ordo Hereticus, Fyodor Karamazov to be precise.

    They should build bigger apartment buildings (instead of smaller 3-6 storey huts) in order to keep rents down but as we know it would't be very good business so we can forget it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jµµso View Post
      They should build bigger apartment buildings (instead of smaller 3-6 storey huts) in order to keep rents down but as we know it would't be very good business so we can forget it.
      No way man.

      Perfect balance is 5 floors and 4 sections per building. Anything above and you get the "the projects".

      Issue isn't even so much lack of housing but lack of affordable housing. The rent firms bought out a lot of property and now are milking it like crazy. That coupled in with increased migration to Espoo/Helsinki/Vantaa area made a strained situation into something worthy of being pissed of at.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jµµso View Post


        They should build bigger apartment buildings (instead of smaller 3-6 storey huts) in order to keep rents down but as we know it would't be very good business so we can forget it.
        There are a lot of empty factory halls all over Finland.

        Get one of those, build partition them to small chunks (shared toilets and kitchens) and profit. I'm fairly sure it's just law that prevents that. Which btw prevents builders from building houses that people need aka one room apartments.

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        • #19
          Britain is now considering this after the report on automation.

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          • #20
            Y-Combinator is running a 5 year UBI experiment with experimental and control groups.

            Fronting with their own cash to come up with data driven results:

            https://www.businessinsider.com.au/y...17-9?r=US&IR=T

            Costs the taxpayer nothing, but could be of great value informing future policy.

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            • #21
              You ask me, the "universal basic income" has only one potential advantage: Welfare states could reduce the huge administrative burden that is the distribution of dozens of social benefits, and save a lot of money if they were all stuffed into one unconditional basic income. But that's it. Let's not forget the welfare state forces each and every citizen to contribute with their own hard-earnt money. Conventional morals have it that only an outstanding good (as well as the chance to benefit oneself if need be) justifies this mandate of the law.

              The universal basic income, on the other hand, implies as a decadent "truth" a human right to be provided with a minimum standard of living, or should I say, a human right to live at the expense of others. This grandiose fancy could potentially kill off social cohesion, destroy all worth ethics and cause an invasion of immigrants of the most unsavoury kind. A mere couple-of-years testing phase can't possibly be insightful in that regard. The harmful side effects of social upheavals tend not to become evident as quickly as that.

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              • #22
                Remember that silicon valley thinks open immigration and outsourcing labour is essential to it business survival. It shows little real interest in the employment rate or wage rate of fellow Americans except with minimum wages.
                https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon...age-1498642203

                I mean c'mon. Who employed in Silicon valley companies make low wages to begin with. Yet expects that to be the norm for the rest of the USA in companies that earn less and pay proper taxes.
                Silicon valley goes elsewhere for low wages to make their stuff.

                So fuck off silicon valley who wont be the taxpayers with the burden after the detailed release of the paradise papers and various foreign govts going after them for blatant tax evasion.

                The whole thing is a callow attempt at sugar coating higher eventual unemployment rates if automation is accepted. It doesn't have to be by the way. Which is the flip argument here.

                We can observe results of welfare already. We can all see it.

                In NZ we have working for families which is akin to this plus basic welfare.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by primer View Post
                  Remember that silicon valley thinks open immigration and outsourcing labour is essential to it business survival. It shows little real interest in the employment rate or wage rate of fellow Americans except with minimum wages.
                  https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon...age-1498642203

                  I mean c'mon. Who employed in Silicon valley companies make low wages to begin with. Yet expects that to be the norm for the rest of the USA in companies that earn less and pay proper taxes.
                  Silicon valley goes elsewhere for low wages to make their stuff.

                  So fuck off silicon valley who wont be the taxpayers with the burden after the detailed release of the paradise papers and various foreign govts going after them for blatant tax evasion.

                  The whole thing is a callow attempt at sugar coating higher eventual unemployment rates if automation is accepted. It doesn't have to be by the way. Which is the flip argument here.

                  We can observe results of welfare already. We can all see it.

                  In NZ we have working for families which is akin to this plus basic welfare.
                  Firstly.

                  Chill out.

                  Secondly.

                  Working For Familes is nothing like a UBI.

                  It is a case of government taking your money and hiring a bunch of people to give a portion of it back while compelling you to thank Labour for implementing it.

                  There is no need for the people running the program and continually taking the credit each payroll period beyond just adding an autocalc function in PAYE that cross references with dependant #’s and age as a single aggregate rebate figure.

                  I can gladly go on all day and night long about the shortcomings of Silicon Valley and the bubble within which many live there.

                  But denying the value of a privately funded open data opportunity to learn is simply ignorant.

                  It’s not about supporting or opposing it. It’s about data based learning over partisan ignorance.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Flagg View Post

                    ...
                    It is a case of government taking your money and hiring a bunch of people to give a portion of it back while compelling you to thank Labour for implementing it.

                    ....
                    Indeed. It takes a Labour government to think that the most efficient way to make people bettter off is to take their money, run it through IRD and then give some back.

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                    • #25
                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...-kiwi-families.
                      Universally politically approved and increased"working for families" redistribution of wealth to lower income families for the objective of fairer equality.
                      Also the so called "rich" were going to get some extra from National. Lets not call that a voter bribe either.

                      What were you going to spend that on again?








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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by muck View Post
                        [FONT=trebuchet ms]Welfare states could reduce the huge administrative burden that is the distribution of dozens of social benefits, and save a lot of money if they were all stuffed into one unconditional basic income.
                        In theory, yes. In practice, no.

                        It seems very difficult to get rid of public pencil pushers. Recently Finland had a large number of cities combining. The idea being, that administration would get leaner. In practice the public workers got a period of lets say six years in which they would not get fired, after that, they came up with other jobs for them.

                        In case of these social workers, they will just start doing something else like handling interviews and projects for the unemployed.

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                        • #27
                          Dealing with actual people is one of the low chance of being automated. Calculating anything that can be simply programmable like accounting at risk. A profession that takes years of learning.
                          Now professions are going, not just factory worker who have already been largely replaced by outsourcing and robots.
                          There was not as much wringing of hands and furrowed brows over them as one factory after another ceased.
                          Oh they will find something else to do.

                          Cost cutting lay offs is not necessarily increasing productivity.
                          Apparent because actually automation responsible for 80% of US higher end manufacturing layoffs and outsourcing the rest has been going on for many years already.

                          And American economic growth is 4% in recent quarterly returns on the tail end of a series of 2% years(unable to finance debt) the product of the lowest interest rates in history.
                          Now they have to try and come up with a tax plan for when that finishes. That's if it ever finishes. Just look at Japan and its years of effort to recreate inflation.

                          We can simply look at an economy and all see it. These are very historic extreme measures to try and incentivize and simply maintain the economy above the water line.

                          While it hasn't been the worst depression thanks to the debt, its the worst recovery in history. The Trump tax plan an effort to alleviate the last part and incentivize productivity.
                          Fundamentally its all been the biggest market intervention ever.

                          US states scrambling with protectionism of the kind "free traders" call unfair practices to attract huge companies so they will come to Alabama or Nevada and employ.

                          Policy wise there is nothing left that hasn't been tried to alleviated the effects of the layoffs and deflation. The real free market had to be abandoned.
                          Extraordinary social necessary measures the likes of which no one would have presumed to be needed less than a few decades ago.

                          Trump was elected on bring back jobs.
                          Silicon valley is offering to sack more jobs. The replacement . Basically welfare. But lets not call it that.
                          How its actually funded is in the small print.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by primer View Post
                            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...-kiwi-families.
                            Universally politically approved and increased"working for families" redistribution of wealth to lower income families for the objective of fairer equality.
                            Also the so called "rich" were going to get some extra from National. Lets not call that a voter bribe either.

                            What were you going to spend that on again?







                            Ah yes, "extra". Or in other words "We'll let you keep more of what you earned". And me, I was going to stimulate the crap out of the economy. Car, house improvements, other upgrades, etc. All now put on hold until I see just how badly the socialist retards fuck up the economy by sticking their dicks into it.

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                            • #29
                              Don't forget those in the service industries and Mr over the seas Ruger be getting some of that nice stimulus.

                              Free trade for the weak deal. You have our jobs and we'll buy back our own stuff.
                              The economy will continue with the full support of the retail sector... Aye aye captain Ahab.

                              We agree that socialist retards are fucking up the world. But so are the rich. Capital flight and tax evasion are negative for any economy. The trillions aren't trickling back down if they are locked up.
                              Then its back to Mr tax payer to bailout the economy. The ones on salaries and wages that have actual addresses for the tax bill to go to.

                              For the socialists. Job loses and welfare. The results are obvious. We can all see it.

                              As said the altruistic silicon valley revolution is sacking jobs. Next the entrepreneurs of industry will cut their costs and expectantly collect their profits and handing it all back.
                              Isn't that communism?
                              How did that go again for incentive?
                              Last edited by primer; 11-11-2017, 09:32 AM.

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