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Finland tests universal basic income

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  • Finland tests universal basic income

    Finland now trying out universal basic income
    Finland's experimental scheme to provide its citizens with a basic income, regardless of employment, launched earlier this week.

    The two-year pilot scheme will provide 2,000 unemployed Finnish citizens, aged between 25 and 58, with a monthly basic income of 560 euros ($581.48) that will replace their other social benefits.
    These citizens will continue to receive the basic income even if they find work.
    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/finla...ic-income.html

    What's your thoughts on basic income?

    I am certain that number of pencil pushers wont be cut, no matter what.

    In my opinion the whole point of this should be to give boot to the social workers in cities and Kela.

  • #2
    Basic benefits to keep folks from revolting? What else is new?

    Thing is, those test subjects might get what 2K per month? No strings attached?
    Happy days now, but if it's universal.. After a while getting 2K or whatever will be equal to getting nothing, or being on basic bennies, food stamps and soup kitchens.

    Then again testing and experiments are good, maybe I've read too much dystopian sci fi.

    Comment


    • #3
      Experimenting IS good.

      Work IS changing...particularly relative economic value creation.

      The pyramid of individual high value economic contributions is getting narrower/sharper at the top.

      By that I mean more economic value is being created by fewer people.

      I don't know if it will work, but I hope it, or something like it, will work.

      -----

      Whatever the end result, I'm most hopeful for as much support as we can reasonably afford for a society for the first 1-2 children, and zero support for child 3 and onwards.

      In any case, experimenting is GOOD, fail small and learn fast.

      Comment


      • #4
        They sure chose a shit time to experiment with it. Government paying out to working individuals might result in devaluing the work as a whole if it's open ended. Why should salaries be raised if the state pays 560€ to individuals anyways.

        The biggest issue i see with this is that this is going to be at cost of other services. Paying everyone over 560 regardless of their employment status will undoubtetly strain budget for medical services and education in a considerable way. The social services as we have them now are in line with the saying by that bearded fella. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need". I'm not a commie by any degree but i do think it's task of the state and citizens to support both the structure but also the weakest elements of society. Likewise to push said elements towards common goal.

        So we currently have the citizens and the legacy from better governance system in place on state level but what finland lacks is that 1960's-1980's attitude towards social benefits. The whole view that it's there and you should take it if you absolutely need it but society will still think you're bit shit for doing it. That collective shame aspect is gone. I moved here in mid 1990's from ex-ussr and it was to some degree still there. Come "the current year" and people are absolutely ok with wellfare mooching mouthbreathers.

        I'm fine contributing into the system if i know some shmuck got fired because of downsizing or if a person got really unlucky and now is stuck with 20k worth of medical expenses and operations to be had can get full state funding that is outside of his abilities. With everyone getting 560€ a month i'm kind of afraid that cuts are going to hit not the doctors appointments to deal with your flu but exactly the stuff like cancer treatment and other medical procedures that hit the national budget anything from 10-30k at a time.

        Also all junkies should be put against the wall and shot. Not only are they absolutely worthless drain on the system but they're alsospreading and mutating diseases like rats. Here's where my tracksuit mentality shows.

        Comment


        • #5
          If the prices don't go up, everyone would be in favour of it because people will choose to work even if they don't have to. They will want a better life. Particularly when compared with their peers. Want to own a house rather than rent a room in a flat? Work. Want nice clothes? Work. Want the latest gadgets? Work.

          However, in some countries, people are soooo lazy that basic income would destroy their countries industry even in these two years of experiment.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RetOld View Post
            They sure chose a shit time to experiment with it. Government paying out to working individuals might result in devaluing the work as a whole if it's open ended. Why should salaries be raised if the state pays 560€ to individuals anyways.

            The biggest issue i see with this is that this is going to be at cost of other services. Paying everyone over 560 regardless of their employment status will undoubtetly strain budget for medical services and education in a considerable way. The social services as we have them now are in line with the saying by that bearded fella. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need". I'm not a commie by any degree but i do think it's task of the state and citizens to support both the structure but also the weakest elements of society. Likewise to push said elements towards common goal.
            I am certain they will pay it by increasing the progressive taxing. This means that people earning average salary won't get a penny more (instead our taxes will increase to pay for this).

            Originally posted by random_ghoul View Post

            Thing is, those test subjects might get what 2K per month? No strings attached?
            No, that's 560€.

            Comment


            • #7
              So it's extra money for unemployed then? Government pays your rent, your bills and 560€ in the dank bank.

              Honestly the whole wellfare system needs to be reworked to provide less choices the longer you are on it. From actual money to something solely this guy is talking about.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgYh61YvYDo

              Comment


              • #8
                How far does 560€ monthly get you in Finland?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RetOld View Post
                  So it's extra money for unemployed then? Government pays your rent, your bills and 560€ in the dank bank.

                  Honestly the whole wellfare system needs to be reworked to provide less choices the longer you are on it. From actual money to something solely this guy is talking about.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgYh61YvYDo
                  When I was unemployed I got around 600€ all in all, with the housing aid included.

                  Originally posted by Fargin View Post
                  How far does 560€ monthly get you in Finland?
                  Well, it depends. In Uusimaa area cheapest room seems to cost around 250€/month. Cheapest one room apartment 325€/month.

                  These are in the middle of nowhere, cheapest apartment in a town 50km from Helsinki, where I live, is 450€/month.

                  I think it's fair to say that in most cases it gets you nowhere.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RetOld View Post
                    So it's extra money for unemployed then? Government pays your rent, your bills and 560€ in the dank bank.

                    Honestly the whole wellfare system needs to be reworked to provide less choices the longer you are on it. From actual money to something solely this guy is talking about.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgYh61YvYDo
                    Idea behind it is not to give extra money - its to give you money and stop paying all other benifits. At least thats one verision of how its supposed to work.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well with increasing digitalization and automatization its only a question of time before people will have to start thinking of a solution. It is impossible to find new jobs for everyone who is replaced by an algorythm or a robot. Imagine if self driving trucks become a thing. BAM, hundreds of thousands of unemployed over night. And don´t think that there are safe jobs that won´t be affected by this development.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PEMM View Post
                        No, that's 560€.
                        My bad.
                        We'll see how the experiment pans out. A skeptic I am.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm actually really curious how well it will work. This is kind of thing which looks counterintuitive at first but actually makes a lot of sense. Kudos to Finns for trying it out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fargin View Post
                            How far does 560€ monthly get you in Finland?

                            They also pay your rent... 500€ rent is the limit in my city. After that you have 560€ for everything else.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              EiB L/T: If they're replacing benefits with a stable 560€ then i can't wait since it'll be the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre all over again only economically imposed. I don't think anyone can survive here with appartment rents being 500-1000€ a month depending on the size of your family and availability. Kontula has appartments for like 700€+ which is insane.

                              Since it's the part of the city that needs intervention from Ordo Hereticus, Fyodor Karamazov to be precise.

                              Comment

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