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  • Originally posted by TheKiwi View Post
    VAT is one of the most regressive taxes around - it hurts the poor far more than the wealthy. It is the government clipping the ticket for doing absolutely nothing - in effect you are being charged simply for existing.

    193 countries (including my own) doing something stupid doesn't somehow make it smart.
    Add to that the unfairnis of having to pay taxes on products you buy with money already been tax deducted : Income tax etc.

    You effectively get double taxed. But the government bureaucrats need silly money to spend.


    They could supervise things better and act more effectively but why?

    The average Joe taxpayer has no lobby and can be milked whenever lack of funds arise.


    He is then rewarded with lower pensions than most public servants.


    Same goes for property, depending on the country you live you can be taxed up to 4 times:

    1. Pay tax on income

    2. Pay tax for acquiring property

    3. Pay annually recurring taxes

    4. Pay tax when handing property down

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    • My favourite is the "tax" I pay to my city council - a tax I get VAT charged on, a tax on a tax. The council then get to pretend that they are a miniature government and try to perform all sorts of roles that central government is already doing.

      ​Frankly there aren't enough lamp-posts nor enough rope to deal with all the greedy bureaucrats, but some good example work would go a long way.

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      • Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

        What amount of BS i am reading
        VAT is not a EU invention. 193 countries apply a VAT and it is one of the most reward bringing tax, more than income tax in most countries
        EU is at fault for a lot of things but a lot of things people think EU is at fault for should first be looked at own govs levels.
        BTW EU councils (the ones who votes VAT increase for example) are national govs, you should do a bit more finger pointing at your own gov about tax increase


        Given what i wrote above (the income generated by VAT) you can bet that it won't disapear. It' s a major tax income for 193 countries
        The problem is that they're taking some of our VAT and most of our import duties.

        http://themess.net/forum/political-d...725#post249725

        Now that 0.3% VAT amounts to £2bn/year but excise duty amounts to ~£50bn/year, on top of the £10bn/year fee, the £2.5bn/year in subsidising higher education for EU citizens at UK universities and the £0.75bn/year in JSA, the £60m/year in overseas child benefits. That still hasn't included the added burden on public service, nor the cost of legislation. Holy hell, I don't care if the EU gives us a trade deal or not. We can collect another £50bn/year on import duties on EU exports to us if they don't. Deficit fixed.
        Last edited by JHomes; 10-04-2017, 04:58 AM.

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        • Originally posted by TheKiwi View Post
          VAT is one of the most regressive taxes around - it hurts the poor far more than the wealthy. It is the government clipping the ticket for doing absolutely nothing - in effect you are being charged simply for existing.

          193 countries (including my own) doing something stupid doesn't somehow make it smart.
          It's also interesting that they choose to take the vast majority of import duties from member states to further discourage people from buying from outside the EU.

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          • nor the cost of legislation
            This one, you can dream about nullifying it. If you want to sell stuff in EU, you will have to be clear and compliant on EU regulations. Even China is (and PRC is not the first country i will cite as anexample for regulation complience). So even outside EU, you'll have to apply EU regulations, otherwise no sales.
            If you thought otherwise because sold so by your politicians, you were lied at

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            • Originally posted by JHomes View Post
              It's also interesting that they choose to take the vast majority of import duties from member states to further discourage people from buying from outside the EU.
              Doesn't shock me. Otherwise you'll see a higher trade deficit with social dumping countries like China. They did this to avoid the haemorragy (among other things)

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              • Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

                This one, you can dream about nullifying it. If you want to sell stuff in EU, you will have to be clear and compliant on EU regulations. Even China is (and PRC is not the first country i will cite as anexample for regulation complience). So even outside EU, you'll have to apply EU regulations, otherwise no sales.
                If you thought otherwise because sold so by your politicians, you were lied at
                Not every business does sell stuff to the EU though, yet they are still affected. This costs SMEs billions. So once we leave, we will effectively leave it up to businesses to decide whether they want to export to the EU and hence whether to apply EU rules.
                Last edited by JHomes; 10-04-2017, 06:27 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Mordoror View Post
                  Doesn't shock me. Otherwise you'll see a higher trade deficit with social dumping countries like China. They did this to avoid the haemorragy (among other things)
                  So let me ask this question. In a case of no trade deal, is it fair to say that no nation would actually benefit directly from duties and tariffs on UK imports, only the EU budget itself, which would be disseminated Eastwards.

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                  • Originally posted by JHomes View Post
                    So let me ask this question. In a case of no trade deal, is it fair to say that no nation would actually benefit directly from duties and tariffs on UK imports, only the EU budget itself, which would be disseminated Eastwards.
                    It's more complicated than that
                    Ill give you one example among others because i don't have time too much
                    Let's say there is no trade deal and you get rid of the regulations costs you want : you engage yourself in an unbalanced trade situation with your trade partners. Tarrifs are one mean to rebalance the unbalance. If it was me i'd put a higher tarrif on things coming from China for example to compensate their artificialy low value currency
                    If you rebalance the trade plates through tarrifs, it doesnt get you money, it ensures that you don't lose jobs because of "unfair" competition

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                    • Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

                      It's more complicated than that
                      Ill give you one example among others because i don't have time too much
                      Let's say there is no trade deal and you get rid of the regulations costs you want : you engage yourself in an unbalanced trade situation with your trade partners. Tarrifs are one mean to rebalance the unbalance. If it was me i'd put a higher tarrif on things coming from China for example to compensate their artificialy low value currency
                      If you rebalance the trade plates through tarrifs, it doesnt get you money, it ensures that you don't lose jobs because of "unfair" competition
                      At present we only intend to remove regulations on exports not going to the EU.

                      But again, in the case of tariffs, the individual member states do not collect those tariffs, the EU does. Whereas in the case of post-Brexit UK, HMRC would collect all the tariffs on £300bn worth of EU imports. So basically, the likes of France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands etc. would all get screwed on exports and have nothing to compensate for it wrt tariffs, because the EU would take most of them and leave them only a small share.

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                      • I run a small electronics manufacturing business. Brexit will have little effect on us as we will still have to conform to international standards many of which our standards authority BSI had a hand, in conjunction with the EU, in setting. The world is a very different place from 10 or 20 years ago. Even in telecoms, one of the most rampant standards markets, the power of the product pricing from China has enforced similar requirements everywhere. Mind you, we are not looking forward to going back to the bad old days of copious customs documentation tho'.

                        Most of the regulations that come out of the EU seem pretty sensible from our business perspective although the UK often gold plates them or enforces them where other countries don't. Its a culture thing I suppose. From a society basis a lot of Europe seems to look at life a bit differently and the legal systems in particular are polls apart. Some no doubt caused by the strife and insecurity due to moving land borders over hundreds of years. With our moat we have been lucky to have been pretty stable since 1066.

                        But the world is changing, anyone who thinks that the next 10 years are going to be like the last 10 is, IMHO, going to be pretty disappointed. The huge amount of debt run up over the last 20 years is going to have to be unwound, either by serious inflation of some kind of crash. Any significant rise in interest rates now spells danger for European social democracy with ironically Russia with its low debt being best placed to ride it out.

                        The UK is in a pretty bad place debt wise, not as bad as some mind you, so whatever happens will hit us hard. When that happens maybe it would have been better to stay in the EU, we will never know. At at least we will be in control of our own destiny, not beholden to bureaucrats/politicians in Brussels who will be working to achieve their own objectives which, as an amalgamation of all the other countries', will almost certainly not be the same as ours.

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                        • Apparently any deal will be vetoed if it doesn't include reciprocal rights for Brits in the EU and Europeans in the UK says Tajani, President of the European Parliament.

                          You mean that exact deal May offered months ago and was told there can be no pre negotiation discussions?

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                          • Originally posted by Corrupt View Post
                            Apparently any deal will be vetoed if it doesn't include reciprocal rights for Brits in the EU and Europeans in the UK says Tajani, President of the European Parliament.

                            You mean that exact deal May offered months ago and was told there can be no pre negotiation discussions?
                            Don't be daft. He means the whole deal, the provisions regarding the EU nationals and the Brits are just a small part of the deal, albeit important.

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