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Dow plunges 831 points as stocks suffer worst loss in eight months

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  • #16
    Originally posted by budgie View Post
    So the stock market goes up over the last few months and it's all about Trump (even though it's been going on for years now). Goes down, it's all Obama's fault because of some voodoo he worked just before leaving office or something. A little presidential punji-trap on the path to prosperity.

    Holy cognitive dissonance, Batman.

    You really do think you're Sepo don't you?

    You've lost your recognition of irony to the extent that you don't even recognise an actual American being ironic.

    Less sense of irony than an American... that's some Alanis Morissette awesome.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Stonecutter View Post


      Good point, but that's just a retirement fund right? And how many Americans actually have a 401K? And does a 401K improve the life of the average Joe who's 30 years away from retirement in the meantime?


      "While Trump argues that ordinary Americans benefit from the booming stock market “beyond your wildest dreams” through 401k retirement accounts, only about 52% of families owned stocks directly or indirectly, according to the Federal Reserve."

      https://www.theguardian.com/business...enefit-wealthy
      Probably a lot of people in the US who are in the Military / Civil service, have 401 K's, unless they've changed it to something else, and working guys like guys who work for the telephone companies... They've seen theirs go up and down, along with the stock market... a person can lose a lot of the money socked away in a 401 K...

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      • #18
        The market has made considerable gains all through the Obama and Trump years.

        But a correction is due, and the FED is right to put back interest rates at levels where it makes sense. The days of showers of available cash are not sound in the long run.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Telmar View Post
          The market has made considerable gains all through the Obama and Trump years.

          But a correction is due, and the FED is right to put back interest rates at levels where it makes sense. The days of showers of available cash are not sound in the long run.
          Yes
          And as consequences of (well due) FED interest increase, a lot of US bubbles are good to explode, splattering us together from the other side of the Pond.
          That's just the consquences of the post 9/11 FED decision , 17 years later.
          We had a warning in 2008, same trend is actually on the roll
          Same recipes, same bad taste cake in the end ....

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

            Yes
            And as consequences of (well due) FED interest increase, a lot of US bubbles are good to explode, splattering us together from the other side of the Pond.
            That's just the consquences of the post 9/11 FED decision , 17 years later.
            We had a warning in 2008, same trend is actually on the roll
            Same recipes, same bad taste cake in the end ....
            I don´t believe it would be half as bad as what we had in 2008 because the systemic risk is much lower. But everything is hyperinflated: real estate prices for example, and all these financial products are just as much BS as they were back then.

            The only way to clean up is to let growth rely more on savings and clean the books. I heard that for one dollar of growth are created 3 dollars of debt. I don´t know if that´s accurate...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Telmar View Post
              The market has made considerable gains all through the Obama and Trump years.

              But a correction is due, and the FED is right to put back interest rates at levels where it makes sense. The days of showers of available cash are not sound in the long run.
              I think it went down a couple of times during Obama's terms, because my kids lost money (thousands) more than once in 401 K's.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Telmar View Post

                I don´t believe it would be half as bad as what we had in 2008 because the systemic risk is much lower. But everything is hyperinflated: real estate prices for example, and all these financial products are just as much BS as they were back then.

                The only way to clean up is to let growth rely more on savings and clean the books. I heard that for one dollar of growth are created 3 dollars of debt. I don´t know if that´s accurate...
                I think i've read that it'll be just as bad, or worse, and we are due....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cowboy's daughter View Post

                  I think it went down a couple of times during Obama's terms, because my kids lost money (thousands) more than once in 401 K's.
                  It did´nt go up in a straight line but it most certainly did.

                  https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...ook-office.asp

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Telmar View Post

                    I don´t believe it would be half as bad as what we had in 2008 because the systemic risk is much lower. But everything is hyperinflated: real estate prices for example, and all these financial products are just as much BS as they were back then.

                    The only way to clean up is to let growth rely more on savings and clean the books. I heard that for one dollar of growth are created 3 dollars of debt. I don´t know if that´s accurate...
                    Call me pessimistic but it has the potential to be worse than 2008
                    Public debt is higher (cause of cheap credit) including in low income franges
                    Plenty more bubbles (student debt, car credit debt, real estate debt -again-)
                    There is a lot of toxic credit circulating in the circuit. IIRC only 1/3d was cleaned after 2008
                    There are some very fragile economies. In the EU, Italy has a Greek like potential x1000

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cowboy's daughter View Post

                      I think it went down a couple of times during Obama's terms, because my kids lost money (thousands) more than once in 401 K's.
                      How is that possible? Are Americans allowed to pull money out of their 401Ks before they retire? No matter how the stock market crashes, you only lose if you sell. And the overall trend for the S&P 500 has always been up, to the tune of around 8% a year for over the last 120 years (and this is with the 1929, dot com, 2008, and all the other crashes taken into account). So even though the market corrects or crashes once in a while, if you have quality positions and hold onto them over the long run, should still do OK.

                      The only time a crash hurts people is if those people need their stock investments to live on in the here and now. Like, retired people. But hopefully retired people have converted most of their stocks into secure bonds, to protect themselves from market fluctuations.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stonecutter View Post

                        How is that possible? Are Americans allowed to pull money out of their 401Ks before they retire?

                        No matter how the stock market crashes, you only lose if you sell. And the overall trend for the S&P 500 has always been up, to the tune of around 8% a year for over the last 120 years (and this is with the 1929, dot com, 2008, and all the other crashes taken into account). So even though the market corrects or crashes once in a while, if you have quality positions and hold onto them over the long run, should still do OK.

                        The only time a crash hurts people is if those people need their stock investments to live on in the here and now. Like, retired people. But hopefully retired people have converted most of their stocks into secure bonds, to protect themselves from market fluctuations.
                        You can usually pull your money early out with a penalty. Most people have their 401k through their employer and most simply invest into one of the mutual funds offered, which usually have a diversified portfolio that follow the market pretty closely. So when the overall market tanks you’ll usually see it on your 401k. Very few people go the self-directed route.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jonathan View Post
                          You can usually pull your money early out with a penalty. Most people have their 401k through their employer and most simply invest into one of the mutual funds offered, which usually have a diversified portfolio that follow the market pretty closely. So when the overall market tanks you’ll usually see it on your 401k. Very few people go the self-directed route.
                          I'm telling you my kids saw their 401 K drop by $6,000- $10,000. Or more, i don't remember exact numbers...
                          I'll have to ask.
                          The Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, -0.44% lost more than 800 points Wednesday, experiencing its worst day since the market correction in February. What does market volatility like that even do to a 401(k) plan?
                          The answer isn’t so simple. There’s a very good chance every retirement account will be affected by the volatility, since some portion of even the best diversified plans will be tied to equities. To be more precise, how much of an impact the volatility has depends on what funds employees are invested in, how much of their portfolios are allocated to those investments, and when they plan to retire.
                          “Next month’s statement probably won’t look so good for people,” said Eric Reich, an adviser at Reich Asset Management in Marmora, N.J. “Do not worry about this at all.”
                          (Of course people are going to worry when they see their money disappear.)

                          https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...ity-2018-02-16


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cowboy's daughter View Post

                            I'm telling you my kids saw their 401 K drop by $6,000- $10,000.
                            It’s called paper losses and paper gains. Ask them how their 401k paper value is doing now relative to the time when it had that drop.

                            Originally posted by Cowboy’s Daughter
                            (Of course people are going to worry when they see their money disappear.)
                            It’s not money. It’s the then market value of their investments, which fluctuates up and down. I doubt any of the retirees expected the windfall from the market skyrocketing the way it has recently, so panicking over a drop is silly.

                            As for me I think the market is long overdue for a correction. I can’t make sense of either the equities market (which I expect to drop) or the bond market (which I expect to likewise be affected by rising interest rates), so I’ve taken a wait and see approach, converted everything to a self directed IRA and now hold mostly short-term corporate bonds paying shitty, predictable interest which I intend to hold to maturity or until the dust settles.

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                            • #29
                              I get most worried when Fund managers, CEO's and credit agencies say
                              “Next month’s statement probably won’t look so good for people,” said Eric Reich, an adviser at Reich Asset Management in Marmora, N.J. “Do not worry about this at all.”

                              The fed won't be kicking its rate up again. Emerging markets are at high risk with infectious debt, Turkey and Trump came to terms today, US $ too high, obviously the risk is at real danger levels given the amount that's been sold. This month is always a bad one. So the rate rises got their score card back.

                              They won't repeat a rise. They can't afford to
                              Last edited by primer; 11-10-2018, 01:51 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cowboy's daughter View Post

                                I'm telling you my kids saw their 401 K drop by $6,000- $10,000. Or more, i don't remember exact numbers...
                                I'll have to ask.
                                The Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, -0.44% lost more than 800 points Wednesday, experiencing its worst day since the market correction in February. What does market volatility like that even do to a 401(k) plan?
                                The answer isn’t so simple. There’s a very good chance every retirement account will be affected by the volatility, since some portion of even the best diversified plans will be tied to equities. To be more precise, how much of an impact the volatility has depends on what funds employees are invested in, how much of their portfolios are allocated to those investments, and when they plan to retire.
                                “Next month’s statement probably won’t look so good for people,” said Eric Reich, an adviser at Reich Asset Management in Marmora, N.J. “Do not worry about this at all.”
                                (Of course people are going to worry when they see their money disappear.)

                                https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...ity-2018-02-16

                                Well dollar cost averaging means that they should be buying through highs and lows...so when it is time to sell they're rich.

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