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  • Originally posted by Enzo Gomez View Post

    May be I'm a little bit wrong with 'the most potent', but it is not far from the true.
    http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

    And do you think it's important for an alliance members to share the same moral values? For political alliance such as EU - definitely yes, but for military - I don't think so.
    Turkey isn't worth Nato, should we be allied to them while they invade Syria, be allied with terrorists?
    We are f#cking related indirectly with all of their BS.
    Drop them!

    In 2003 Saddam was the evil director due to his "links" with AQ, we lose all credibility with that Sultan.
    How could we ever correct dictators like Assad, Nato seems to be not to far off from those standards.

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    • Originally posted by Jumper View Post

      Turkey isn't worth Nato, should we be allied to them while they invade Syria, be allied with terrorists?
      We are f#cking related indirectly with all of their BS.
      Drop them!
      .

      Great possiblity even huge one, NATO chiefs or officials are not dumb and will not give a tiny fcuk your high order . Calm down dude. Get a cold drink. Try to work your mind better life for yourself.

      BTW Where form are you ?

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      • Hollanda, harika! Evet!

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        • Originally posted by Jumper View Post

          Turkey isn't worth Nato, should we be allied to them while they invade Syria, be allied with terrorists?
          ''Reported from NATO HQ'' Well last days i am not active on forum cause suffering from fucking pollen allergy.Honestly i don't give single fuck about Tayyip but military related topics different story.

          Before we ''invade'' Syria,you have no idea about daily missile attacks by isis especially in Kilis right?

          Every FUCKING time when someone called Tayyip as my sultan,i remember timeline between so called coup cases like Balyoz,Ergenekon against patriots,so called peace process,early days of Syrian Civil War,friends of Syria meetings etc. (check only wikipedia member countries of ''Friends of Syria'') hell i even remember even fucking greens were saying Tayyip and his minions as greatest democrats in Turkish history also i didn't forget how they were welcomed with red carpets in those times.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jumper View Post

            Turkey isn't worth Nato, should we be allied to them while they invade Syria, be allied with terrorists?
            We are f#cking related indirectly with all of their BS.
            Drop them!

            In 2003 Saddam was the evil director due to his "links" with AQ, we lose all credibility with that Sultan.
            How could we ever correct dictators like Assad, Nato seems to be not to far off from those standards.
            First, Please put those Your sultan etc things aside non of the Turks here support tayyip or akp here. Even we hate more him than you since his actions directly affect our lifes.


            Secondly, Other NATO armies' soldiers are also in the Syria without Syrian government's approval. Biggest NATO ally supported various "moderate rebels" in Syria itself. Many NATO allies support an organization which has ambitions grab land from Turkey. But no those are good terrorists.

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            • Originally posted by tornadoII View Post

              First, Please put those Your sultan etc things aside non of the Turks here support tayyip or akp here. Even we hate more him than you since his actions directly affect our lifes.


              Secondly, Other NATO armies' soldiers are also in the Syria without Syrian government's approval. Biggest NATO ally supported various "moderate rebels" in Syria itself. Many NATO allies support an organization which has ambitions grab land from Turkey. But no those are good terrorists.
              All Nato members should stay out of sertain conflicts, more members should be corrected.
              We shouldn't defend other nations when they follow their own dirty interests and get attacked in the process when they support AQ-ish terror groups.
              Being allied with KSA and Qatar explains it all, that's a sad fact but that doenst means we shouldn't try to stay on a good track.
              The US ME policy remains a example of hypocrism.
              Being involved in the ME remains complicated, but our trainers make very clear to their clients that they shouldn't lower themselves to the level of their enemies.
              It's obvious most combatants fit the terror label, but there are obvious differences between training Iraqi security forces and facilitating AQ operations.
              What's the point of Nato when it's just used when its helpful, all members should fit the picture.
              And before Nato gets ruined we should try to keep it as clean as possible.
              I'd rather have more ties with NW European nations because they developed on a different manner than let's say turkey.
              Not that isn't a better development, but maybe not fitting..
              The cultural differences are obvious, it may doesn't fits the core idiology behind Nato.
              Erdogan does a lot against our interests, his influence disturbs the integration of the Turkish minority.
              Great to be allied...can it get more ridiculous?
              Last edited by Jumper; 03-04-2017, 01:14 AM.

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              • To move away from the whinging and crying going on in this thread, why not stay on topic?

                A pretty reputable journalist, supporter of opposition has made claims that AKP planned this Netherlands crisis at least one month before it happened.

                A referandum commercial produced by Erdoğan's AKP shows a football match between a Turkish national team and an unnamed foreign (but most certainly European country themed) team. The foreign team fouls and plays dirty, the ref doesn't care bla bla... eventually all these fine "Turkish" people unite to give one "collective" red card to the opposing team.

                The journalist (Yılmaz Özdil) says the ad was shot in February, and he probably connected the two incidents through the metaphors. Foreigners playing dirty, Turks not letting it happen bla bla.

                Since Erdoğan and AKP appear to be losing the referandum, they're desperate to grasp any straw possible. Their finest game is playing victim card which is completely not a Turkish thing to do.

                He also mentioned that Erdoğan sent a female Minister there on purpose, knowing some incident would spark. Everywhere else, it was usually male representatives going around.

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                • Originally posted by thanamestolga View Post
                  A pretty reputable journalist, supporter of opposition has made claims that AKP planned this Netherlands crisis at least one month before it happened.
                  I don't doubt the AKP was out there to provoke but my question then is why just days before the Dutch elections? Two things could have happened: more votes to Geert Wilders (which would have it even harder for our other parties to form a coalition without him) or the other right-wing parties would take a stronger stance on Turkey, which they did. Either way the relations with one of Turkey's biggest investors soured.

                  Now I have read an article or two about how this conflict encouraged quite a bit of Dutch Turks to vote for DENK, which is widely seen as pro-Erdogan over here. Their leader was basically the only one not to condemn Erdogan and instead call for our police not to use violence while an unorganized mass of people in an unauthorized march was shouting takbir at them and making fascist gestures. A lot of property was damaged as well. All of this did very little to improve trust between Turks and non-Turks over here. There is some reality to the idea that at least part of this community sees Erdogan as a leader they need to follow. Violence against Kurds, Gülenists and intimidation of Dutch Turks critical of Erdogan does show Erdogan has some thugs at his disposal over here.

                  I still believe this whole conflict is incredibly one-sided. There was no reason for us to pick a fight with the Turkish government, the fight came to us.

                  Purely from an electoral point of view, do you think the Turkish diaspora can make a difference for the referendum? The majority of the AKP voters and probably a large chunk of the MHP voters is in favor of this referendum right? So no election campaign is needed anyhow because in the Netherlands and Germany the Turks who border to vote usually are big-time suporters of AKP anyway. CHP voters are a very small group over here. MHP & HDP wouldn't even make the threshold in the Turkish system.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Enzo Gomez View Post

                    May be I'm a little bit wrong with 'the most potent', but it is not far from the true.
                    http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

                    And do you think it's important for an alliance members to share the same moral values? For political alliance such as EU - definitely yes, but for military - I don't think so.

                    Yep I didn't want to jump on that bandwagon. It is really difficult to judge such things.

                    My impression of the Turkish military is that it operates a lot of obsolete stuff which may be necessary considering its location.

                    But when looking at most potent in Europe stuff there is technology lacking.

                    The Air Force for example would struggle on its own against a modern adversary operating hundreds of modern aircraft and missiles.

                    An other point is the deficiency of a modern integrated AD system. Hence we always help with Patriot.

                    Currently it consists of Nike, Hawk and Rapier.


                    I don't think that a NATO ally should necessarily have to have the same values. Like said before Turkey has a strategic position.

                    It also depends on how you weigh these values and which ones you chose to be important.


                    Turkey was for decades not a real democracy but the Kemalist attitude made it sort of overlookable.


                    But the ally should be trustworthy and loyal. And maybe here some values can be de rigeur.

                    It is complex and has a lot of facets to it.

                    I would trust a theocartic regime way less than a sensible market oriented military regime.

                    The first one is highly unpredictable and may tend to irrational bahavious (Erdogan) while the latter is generally more straight forward.

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                    • Originally posted by picanha View Post


                      Yep I didn't want to jump on that bandwagon. It is really difficult to judge such things.

                      My impression of the Turkish military is that it operates a lot of obsolete stuff which may be necessary considering its location.

                      But when looking at most potent in Europe stuff there is technology lacking.

                      The Air Force for example would struggle on its own against a modern adversary operating hundreds of modern aircraft and missiles.

                      An other point is the deficiency of a modern integrated AD system. Hence we always help with Patriot.

                      Currently it consists of Nike, Hawk and Rapier.


                      I don't think that a NATO ally should necessarily have to have the same values. Like said before Turkey has a strategic position.

                      It also depends on how you weigh these values and which ones you choose to be important.


                      Turkey was for decades not a real democracy but the Kemalist attitude made it sort of overlookable.


                      But the ally should be trustworthy and loyal. And may be here some values can be de rigeur.

                      It is complex and has a lot of facets to it.

                      I would trust a theocartic regime way less than a sensible market oriented military regime.

                      The first one is highly unpredictable and may tend to irrational bahavious (Erdogan) while the latter is generally more straight forward.

                      I would put my signature under this post any day of the week.

                      With the exception of obsolete gear, which used to apply is mostly being resolved at the moment.

                      Two major things that TSK lacks at the moment, modern integrated Air Defence, and a shortage of pilots. Few years ago, attack helicopters were seriously lacking with only maybe a dozen old Cobra's and a few SuperCobra's being active, the stop-gap A129's came into effect and has "softened" weak point there.

                      The single largest problem we face is, our Air Defences are left literally to the F-16 fleet. Until that is solved, we have a weak spot compared to most of our neighbors.

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                      • Nearly half of all Dutch Turks has voted in the referendum. Of the roughly 250.000 people elligable to vote 118.322 actually cast their vote. This amounts to around 47%.

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                        • Originally posted by Mike1976 View Post
                          Nearly half of all Dutch Turks has voted in the referendum. Of the roughly 250.000 people elligable to vote 118.322 actually cast their vote. This amounts to around 47%.
                          Probably more wanted to vote, but they where held in Turkey.
                          It seems they don't allow sertain Dutch-Turkish to leave the country..

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                          • Dutch parliament just voted on a proposal to improve relations between the Erdogan government and the Netherlands.

                            5 votes FOR and 145 votes AGAINST

                            The initiator of the proposal belongs to DENK (3 seats), a pro-Erdogan party with primarily a Turkish-Dutch background. This party is an insult to every Turk with more than 2 brain cells.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OrangeWolf View Post
                              5 votes FOR and 145 votes AGAINST
                              Damn, such a tight result!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by OrangeWolf View Post
                                Dutch parliament just voted on a proposal to improve relations between the Erdogan government and the Netherlands.

                                5 votes FOR and 145 votes AGAINST

                                The initiator of the proposal belongs to DENK (3 seats), a pro-Erdogan party with primarily a Turkish-Dutch background. This party is an insult to every Turk with more than 2 brain cells.
                                Who else voted for the proposal?

                                Comment

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