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  • Originally posted by thanamestolga View Post
    This is utter fear-mongering. There is no threat from Turkish Armed Forces to hit Europe with missiles, just as there is no risk of any European military to hit Turkey with long range missiles, European countries could be trusted with it, but Turkish Armed Forces can't? Who gets to decide that? Who died and made foreigners the Chief of Staff of TSK and dictate who is a threat and who isn't?
    Since your sultan started meddling in the political affairs of foreign countries and threatening them? "Europeans across the world will not be able to walk the streets safely if they keep up their current attitude towards Turkey."

    Turkey is rapidly approaching North Korean standards of diplomacy.

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    • Amnesty International: One Third of All Imprisoned Journalists Are in Turkey

      Amnesty International has called on the Turkish government to stop its crackdown on the media and release imprisoned journalists in the country.

      “Turkey now jails more journalists than any other country. One third of all imprisoned journalists in the world are being held in Turkish prisons,” said a statement by the human rights advocacy group.

      “This crackdown must end. Journalists must be allowed to do their jobs, because journalism is not a crime,” the statement added.
      http://www.voanews.com/a/amnesty-int...y/3783111.html

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      • Originally posted by thanamestolga View Post
        Terrorist supporters?

        I think you're failing to recognize, Turkey did everything it has done over the years in cooperation with the US administrations. As far as the dictatorship goes, we all hate him yes... but he is not a dictator. To be a dictator, he would have to force his rule. This individual, he gets votes and wins. He's elected, legally.

        What I find weird is that, the reason Erdoğan gets so many votes is simply because the West gives him reasons to win to begin with.

        Say what you will, but remember that Turkey never directly or indirectly aided any group that has bombed civilians in Paris, Berlin or Brussels. But as we speak, several EU countries and the US are directly aiding a group that has been proven to bomb places like Istanbul and Ankara. So yes, throw all that NATO stuff out the window.

        Not only that, but the average Westerners perception that Turks somehow support ISIS. If any of you think wrongly accusing Turkey or Turks of supporting terrorism is somehow going to help, guess what... its not. It's only going to generate more negative thoughts about Westerners, and how Westerners see them, and their vote will just go to Erdoğan.

        Euroweenie countries can't keep their own citizens in check, there are more ISIS terrorists with EU passports than there are Turkish. But somehow, our country is the one at fault.

        Erdoğan is doing propaganda for the upcoming referandum, now me, my friends, my entire extended family... about half the adult population of Turkey are going to vote "no" on the referandum, to keep Erdoğan from gaining more power. But all he has to do, to gain votes is... go up to a stage and say "well.. EU countries support PKK, they want to destroy us"... show some pictures and boom, thats it. He just gained votes.

        Your countries are adding fuel to the fire, with your short-sighted amateur policies that are on par with Erdoğan's short-sighted, amateur policies.
        AQ related rebels are able to mount massive offensives from the Turkish/Syrian border regions, do you know what that requires?
        Do they they airlift that? How do they get shiny BM-21's and convoy loads of supplies to initiate that?
        I don't believe Turkey doesn't knows what's happening on it's own borders especially with a conflict next door!
        The Saudi's may pay, those "rebels" can't pop out of nothing in those amounts allthough SAA forces control the region..once in a while.
        Well, when ever the SAA controls the country the Turks can claim their part of this horrible war.

        Erdogan is an instable maniak, and maybe not a dictator..but how he tries to follow his interests by detaining thousands, no bye bye..
        It's not all about ISIS but AQ would be considered as terrorists right?

        We can't keep our civilians in check by locking them up or threatening them, we simply can't as we want to treat the majority on a decent manner.. It's a drawback of freedom.

        The west makes failures, and enough..and we need to focus on our own before fingerpointing at others.
        But the row of developments since Erdogan is in power don't fit western values, and it seems he rather picks other values..what's wrong with making your own choice to leave, but don't call everyone NAZI's because of minor things and recieve billions in support at thesame time.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jumper View Post

          AQ related rebels
          e.
          Which ones excactly ? Names please.
          Last edited by mokokko; 29-03-2017, 02:02 PM.

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          • Originally posted by mokokko View Post

            Which ones excactly ? Names please.
            Muhhamad.. and Ali.

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            • Originally posted by Jumper View Post
              terrorist supporters that are threatening the west, destabilize the region and are developing a dictatorship should be expelled from Nato.
              The problem is that NATO needs Turkey much more than Turkey needs NATO. It wil be stupid to refuse of the most potent military in the Europe. Do you really think that Romania and Bulgaria can deter Russia in the Black Sea?

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              • Originally posted by Enzo Gomez View Post

                The problem is that NATO needs Turkey much more than Turkey needs NATO. It wil be stupid to refuse of the most potent military in the Europe. Do you really think that Romania and Bulgaria can deter Russia in the Black Sea?
                If they hate us that much it would be a question if they would really support us in a possible war with Russia, even when they have themselves issues with them
                I don't believe Russia is a big threat, there are more potential potent militaries in the west.
                It's doesn't makes it better when Nato members have more issues with Russia.
                And may takes a while, but the financial resources are massive when it comes to a crisis.
                The Netherlands could ten fold it's budget, cuts are elsewhere needed but over 100 billion is reachable.
                Besides that the recent coup is a clear indication that the military isn't completely loyal.
                So would they join us possibly again all odds?!
                And I don't believe it's a very competent military, we all have seen how effective combined arms are used in Northern Syria.
                When it comes to Russia sheer economic power would be decisive.
                It doesn't matters who the Turkish are, it's about their behavior that should be fitting to Western values or Nato standards.
                The Nato should pick countries because the fit not because they are useful.
                Last edited by Jumper; 30-03-2017, 12:42 AM.

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                • Why should they? One could donate many more ships to Romania and Bulgaria if needed. No more need for crossing the Dardanelles.

                  Turkey and Russia have more rivalry between them than unifying aspects.


                  I also wouldn't call Turkey the most potent military in Europe. By far not. It is larger than most others but that is not all as we may have learned.


                  Germany could also field thousands of M113 and M60 type stuff and man it with thousands of drafted recruits. The value remains questionable when facing High Tech opponents.

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                  • Originally posted by mokokko View Post

                    Which ones excactly ? Names please.

                    What?


                    Liwa Ahfad Saladin - fantasized about and eventually comitted war crimes against Kurds, several times in a coalition that coordinated with Al-Qaida.

                    Levant Front, same ideology as Al-Qaida, implemented Sharia to find excuses for its crimes.

                    Sultan Murad Division, revenge killings of Kurds. No further comment on these guys.

                    Nour al-Din al-Zenki Movement, no comment.

                    Mountain Hawks Brigade, these fighters joined al-Qaida then came back again to do some more moderate killing.

                    Ahrar al-Sham, al-Qaida competitor and sometimes outright ally.

                    Jaysh al-Sunna, defunct, but was basically another al-Qaida group.

                    Free Idlib Army, same as above, very fluid membership with Al-Qaida.

                    13th Division, fights al-Nusra from time to time over turf, then joins it in offensives.

                    *

                    There are far too many names out there to continue.

                    There are more pro-Turkish groups out there that may or may not have been fighting alongside al-Qaida but that are ideologically so similar to Al-Qaida one would need a microscope to see the differences.

                    *

                    Some Turkmen brigade that, on the orders of Erdogan, condemned the Netherlands a few weeks ago... They include groups that are ideologically basically Al-Qaida, they also include Turkish fascists (that also showed up in Rotterdam, btw) and well we all know their heroism when it comes to shooting parachuted pilots out of the sky.

                    ****

                    Keep telling us about the PKK. Yes well f*ck the PKK, but your government has way too many al-Qaida oriented friends to make credible comments on terrorism.

                    Does Hamas still have a hotline with Erdogan?
                    Last edited by OrangeWolf; 30-03-2017, 01:00 AM.

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                    • Skirmishes outside the Turkish embassy in Brussels have left three people injured. Opponents to Erdogan objected to posters being placed to remind people to vote "yes" in the referendum meant to give Erdogan virtually unlimited power. According to various media three Kurds were stabbed. The police succeeded in separating the two groups of youngsters.

                      This follows other incidents in the Netherlands where people opposed to Erdogan were intimidated and/or beaten to stop them campaigning for the "no" camp. I don't know about other countries but I imagine it's the same there. From the methods used and the make up of the groups I get the feeling that they are somewhat organized along para-military lines. Turkey has conscription, so many of the people in these gangs could be (former) military. How much organization there is coming from Turkey, diplomatic missions or mosques in Europe for these gangs would be interesting to look into for the intelligence agencies.

                      Don't think I've read this on this forum, but the Turkish government asked the BND (German foreign intelligence) to help them spy on Turks in Germany. Instead of helping them the BND reported the requests to the domestic intelligence agencies in Germany.
                      Last edited by Mike1976; 30-03-2017, 01:59 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by mokokko View Post

                        Which ones excactly ? Names please.
                        More on this topic:

                        Migrants accused of being part of Syrian militant group go on trial in Germany

                        http://in.reuters.com/article/german...-idINKBN17126E

                        The "militant group" being Ahrar, a terrorist group with the same ideology as al-Qaida. This group is fighting alongside the TSK in northern Syria. I don't blame the TSK for this but I do blame the AKP-led government.

                        One day the TSK will need to turn its arms on groups like this.

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                        • Originally posted by Mike1976 View Post
                          Skirmishes outside the Turkish embassy in Brussels have left three people injured..
                          Damn! I used to pass this place daily on my way to my gym. Small world indeed.

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                          • Originally posted by Mike1976 View Post

                            Don't think I've read this on this forum, but the Turkish government asked the BND (German foreign intelligence) to help them spy on Turks in Germany. Instead of helping them the BND reported the requests to the domestic intelligence agencies in Germany.
                            merkels government is a pure disgrace in handling this.
                            Today the astonishing number of around 6000 estimated turkish spies in Germany made news, parliamentaries are on their spy list too.

                            http://www.dw.com/en/name-of-german-...ist/a-38195162
                            http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...d_6859143.html

                            The clear connection here is Akp and Diyanet, who uses their mosque affiliates as some kind of secret police, thats why everything is so well organized

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                            • Originally posted by picanha View Post
                              I also wouldn't call Turkey the most potent military in Europe. By far not. It is larger than most others but that is not all as we may have learned.
                              May be I'm a little bit wrong with 'the most potent', but it is not far from the true.
                              http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

                              And do you think it's important for an alliance members to share the same moral values? For political alliance such as EU - definitely yes, but for military - I don't think so.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Enzo Gomez View Post

                                May be I'm a little bit wrong with 'the most potent', but it is not far from the true.
                                http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

                                And do you think it's important for an alliance members to share the same moral values? For political alliance such as EU - definitely yes, but for military - I don't think so.
                                The military tend to, sometimes, be an extension of the political branch.

                                But if one country has a borderline dictatorial behavior, does not really care about human rights of specific ethnicities, and bear moral values drastically different from the rest of the group, then if the military branch is an extension of the political branch it "can" become a serious issue.

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