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How France dealt with those who collaborated with the Nazis after war’s end

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

    As Stonecutter said : Montagnards when french and US army left VietNam
    Harki (muslim auxiliaries) during Algerian war
    both were treated even more harshely

    For the reason, you have to understand French situation. It was both a traumatism (40 defeat making the defeated collaborationists traitors to the nation) and the split of the country (making it a borderline civil war)
    Milice policemen, french gendarmes hunted down, killed and tortured resistants sometimes without even being pushed by the nazis
    Hate for the germans (and by ricochet germans's friends) was also strong in a huge part of the population since 1914
    You had those collaborating, living great lives while the others were struggling to find food and clothes
    Plus those collaborating behaved sometimes more nazily than true nazis
    Vichy was borderline a totalitarian gov by some aspects

    All that trigered hate and hate in the same nation between same nationals can lead to harsh retaliations
    See how bloody can be civil wars between brothers, neighbors and cousins
    It was kinda the same thing in France, not openly, not a real civil war,, but something festering during 5 years
    Also French Communists who did so much to hamper France in 1939-40 (Fomenting mutiny, industrial sabotage, strikes) suddenly trying to make up for being nazi minions through moscow, and also some revenge on political opponents.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Linedoggie View Post
      Also French Communists who did so much to hamper France in 1939-40 (Fomenting mutiny, industrial sabotage, strikes) suddenly trying to make up for being nazi minions through moscow, and also some revenge on political opponents.

      If the French government did not want to make enemies of the communists, they should not have banned the communist party in 1939.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ak16 View Post


        If the French government did not want to make enemies of the communists, they should not have banned the communist party in 1939.
        The communists turned against France in 1939 to serve their master Stalin who chose to make friends with the nazis. And they disturbed the war effort. Communists and nazis chose the same path on that year...so it should not be suprising that France banned the communist party.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ak16 View Post


          If the French government did not want to make enemies of the communists, they should not have banned the communist party in 1939.
          The Party was banned because It was calling for Strikes in the defence production, Mutinies among the troops, and industrial sabotage to hamper France being able to defend itself from Nazis. All because the Soviets were then Nazi Allies and Moscow told the PCF to help the nazis and in lockstep the PCF did their good communist duty.

          Frankly the PCF membership was lucky they were not hunted down and shot by the bushel for being traitorous bastards.
          Last edited by Linedoggie; 21-05-2018, 08:47 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ak16 View Post


            If the French government did not want to make enemies of the communists, they should not have banned the communist party in 1939.
            CGT workers shouldn't have sabotaged military equipment in the factories AND SU shouldn't have invaded Finland
            Having communist party banned by a left govenment speaks volume about how far communists went in regard to National safety

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            • #21
              1) Communist party, unlike others, was against the Munich appeasement of Nazis.
              2) The alleged sabotage incidents came after the party was banned.
              3) The instances of sabotage are grossly over-inflated (for obvious political reasons by authors who wrote just after WW2):

              "Domestically, the PCF led anti-war actions, but although the party published pacifist propaganda for soldiers they stopped short of inciting desertion. The role of the PCF in alleged sabotage operations, against armaments plants, has been a point of debate among historians. In 1951, A. Rossi listed a number of sabotage operations initiated by the PCF against armaments factories throughout France,[9] but later historians have downplayed the PCF's role in any such actions, stating that they were isolated cases.[10]"

              4) Communists, unlike the "good guy" right wingers who chose to support Petain and the occupation German forces, were openly against the Vichy regime and fought hard to unify France and expel the Germans.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mordoror View Post
                CGT workers shouldn't have sabotaged military equipment in the factories AND SU shouldn't have invaded Finland
                Having communist party banned by a left govenment speaks volume about how far communists went in regard to National safety
                Once the White Guard with Jager and German assistance won the civil war and formed the anti-Soviet Finnish regime, conflict b/w USSR and Finland was inevitable. If Finland really wanted peace, the Finnish side would not have "dragged their feet" during the negotiations prior to Winter War.

                As opposed to their opponents who happily joined up with Petain.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ak16 View Post
                  1) Communist party, unlike others, was against the Munich appeasement of Nazis.
                  2) The alleged sabotage incidents came after the party was banned.
                  3) The instances of sabotage are grossly over-inflated (for obvious political reasons by authors who wrote just after WW2):

                  "Domestically, the PCF led anti-war actions, but although the party published pacifist propaganda for soldiers they stopped short of inciting desertion. The role of the PCF in alleged sabotage operations, against armaments plants, has been a point of debate among historians. In 1951, A. Rossi listed a number of sabotage operations initiated by the PCF against armaments factories throughout France,[9] but later historians have downplayed the PCF's role in any such actions, stating that they were isolated cases.[10]"

                  4) Communists, unlike the "good guy" right wingers who chose to support Petain and the occupation German forces, were openly against the Vichy regime and fought hard to unify France and expel the Germans.
                  The communists collaborated from 1939 until told by a foreign power (who got bit by its ally) not to. They asked the nazi occupiers to have their newspapers printed again while putting forward the USSR/nazi germany pact, and how they courageously refused to obey the Jew Mandel (Georges Mandel).

                  The first French resistants came from right wing groups (there were few). I don´t know where you get your history from, but I suggest you change your sources and get yourself an education.

                  The communists were sickos. They only exist because after 1941 they had the same enemies the resistants had.
                  Last edited by Telmar; 21-05-2018, 05:54 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Telmar View Post

                    The communists collaborated from 1939 until told by a foreign power (who got bit by its ally) not to. They asked the nazi occupiers to have their newspapers printed again while putting forward the USSR/nazi germany pact, and how they courageously refused to obey the Jew Mandel (Georges Mandel).

                    The first French resistants came from right wing groups (there were few). I don´t know where you get your history from, but I suggest you change your sources and get yourself an education.

                    The communists were sickos. They only exist because after 1941 they had the same enemies the resistants have.
                    I can already see how unbiased your sources are. I suggest you use that thing between your ears for some critical thinking once in a while.


                    How about You, ak16 using your brain and not ruining a decent thread,

                    Mod H.
                    Last edited by Hollis; 21-05-2018, 07:21 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ak16 View Post

                      I can already see how unbiased your sources are. I suggest you use that thing between your ears for some critical thinking once in a while.
                      Talked like a 1939 commie. Check "le Monde" and other major newspapers, the truth is out, the communists were collaborators.

                      http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/articl...3769_3224.html
                      Last edited by Telmar; 21-05-2018, 06:03 AM. Reason: Free link (in French) for ak16 who discovered only today the communists were collaborators of the nazis until 1941

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Linedoggie View Post
                        And should we let Mobs (of uncertain biases) decide who gets retribution? I say this as Many Actual Collaborators got no such punishment, some even weaseled their way into Free France's new government
                        I am naturally against the mob mentality, especially when innocents get killed, or innocent women get their hair cut and humiliated for the sole purpose of revenge because of things that may not have anything to do with Nazi occupation as Telmar or Mordo pointed out.

                        By the way, I eventually found the Nazi politician who ''enslaved'' large chunks of European countries and people...

                        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Sauckel

                        He was eventually sentenced to death and hanged on the same morning as the other Nazi criminals remaining and convicted at the Nuremberg trial.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Telmar View Post
                          Mordoror. And many civil servanrs were the same ones named during the socialist FP years.

                          People simply doing their jobs were in the end as destructive as the ideologues.

                          That being said, confronted by such a situation, I can only hope I would make the right choice. I don't want to judge people too harshly, that's also why I dispise the extra-judicary mob justice at the liberation,
                          That's where judging is difficult
                          A small level civil servant just carrying on his job, was he a collaborationist ?
                          Somebody selling bread both to villagers and passing german soldiers, was he a collaborationist ?
                          A gendarme managing the traffic and giving the priority to a german convoy, was he a collaborationist ?
                          On the other hand you had those who worked to hinder/hurt german and Vichy in the shadows, at low level, by passive or low tier "resistance" while still doing their jobs

                          70 y Away, people want to think they would have been active resistance fighters et all
                          Life doesn't work like that. I dunno either if i would have done the "right choice" given that between a bad choice and the right choice there is a whole spectrum of broad and personal situations
                          And i can bet that any pushed in such kind of situation can't swear about it either before being put in the cauldron

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

                            That's where judging is difficult
                            A small level civil servant just carrying on his job, was he a collaborationist ?
                            Somebody selling bread both to villagers and passing german soldiers, was he a collaborationist ?
                            A gendarme managing the traffic and giving the priority to a german convoy, was he a collaborationist ?
                            On the other hand you had those who worked to hinder/hurt german and Vichy in the shadows, at low level, by passive or low tier "resistance" while still doing their jobs

                            70 y Away, people want to think they would have been active resistance fighters et all
                            Life doesn't work like that. I dunno either if i would have done the "right choice" given that between a bad choice and the right choice there is a whole spectrum of broad and personal situations
                            And i can bet that any pushed in such kind of situation can't swear about it either before being put in the cauldron
                            It is difficult. because every grand plan has its little hands doing part of the work, that individually has no consequence.

                            That´s why I prefer not to be too judgemental. When I was talking about the right choice, I only hope I would have had the guts to risk my life to free my nation, or protect hunted people in my home, and not remain neutral.

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