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How France dealt with those who collaborated with the Nazis after war’s end

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  • How France dealt with those who collaborated with the Nazis after war’s end

    How France dealt with those who collaborated with the Nazis after war’s end

    https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/...rators-france/

    France declared war on Germany on Sept. 3, 1939, becoming one of the first countries, along with Great Britain, to stand up to the Nazi regime.

    The declaration of war came just two days after the German army invaded and annexed Poland. There weren’t many physical clashes between French and Nazi forces until May 10, 1940, when the Germans invaded France, occupying the northern half of the country, including Paris. The Nazis conquered its neighboring country in just six weeks and controlled it until Aug. 19, 1944, when the majority of the occupied territory was liberated. Paris was freed six days later, on Aug. 25, when the last German garrison in the French capital surrendered to the Allied forces.
    As in many other occupied countries, France had domestic traitors who collaborated with the Nazi regime. This partnership with the enemy was driven by various factors, such as racism, opportunism, and hatred for communism, but there were also people forced to work with the Germans.

    more at link...

  • #2
    This is a decent article and a good read.

    Many French nowadays remember the prostitutes or at least civilian French women who slept with German soldiers in order for ‘benefits’ whether that was food, money or other privileges.

    The French had a solid memory and they ended up being head shaven and publicly humiliated and beaten.

    No further comments about the summary executions that happened shortly after D-Day and the liberation.

    Regarding those women whose hairs got cut by an angry mob, those who have read how cruel the Gestapo was toward French resistance and how Jean Moulin had every of his bone crushed until death and how the French women who resisted against Nazism had their breast cut off, I am thinking: hairs grow back.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Problem with mob justice is who is in the mob and who is motivating it.

      The commies were great exciters and tried to make up for collaboration with the regime until 1941.

      And others trying to suddenly publically appear as courageous resistants although they were doing their normal job a week earlier.

      My uncles from Paris left for auschwitz on august 1st 1944, the last train from Paris. Many people were doing their jobs with allied troops 120 km away. Probably not shaved like women whose crime was having slept with a german officer.



      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JakeScully View Post
        This is a decent article and a good read.

        Many French nowadays remember the prostitutes or at least civilian French women who slept with German soldiers in order for ‘benefits’ whether that was food, money or other privileges.

        The French had a solid memory and they ended up being head shaven and publicly humiliated and beaten.

        No further comments about the summary executions that happened shortly after D-Day and the liberation.

        Regarding those women whose hairs got cut by an angry mob, those who have read how cruel the Gestapo was toward French resistance and how Jean Moulin had every of his bone crushed until death and how the French women who resisted against Nazism had their breast cut off, I am thinking: hairs grow back.

        Thanks for sharing.
        As Telmar said it was mob justice
        Among those hanged or shaved there were probably some victims of envy, jealousy or petty revenge
        Extrajudiciary executions led to around 9-10K (some say more up to 20-30K) deaths
        What is sure is that 127 000 were officialy trialed when civil services went back to normal working and that around 90-100 000 were recognized guilty from light to heavy level
        What is sure is that some who were collaborators slept through too
        Last edited by Mordoror; 20-05-2018, 03:01 AM. Reason: typos

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        • #5
          I wonder if there were other instances in history were collaborators were treated the same way? Was it because of the enormity of Nazi Germany's crimes and France's (and Netherland's etc.) perceived humiliation from the swift defeats compared to previous conflicts?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cherno View Post
            I wonder if there were other instances in history were collaborators were treated the same way?
            I think the Montagnards in Vietnam were treated much worse, after the US pulled out

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cherno View Post
              I wonder if there were other instances in history were collaborators were treated the same way? Was it because of the enormity of Nazi Germany's crimes and France's (and Netherland's etc.) perceived humiliation from the swift defeats compared to previous conflicts?
              I read a book, I can't remember the name of it, I read it years ago. It was factual, about Jews coming out of concentration camps, the ones who survived, and partisans, after the war taking it upon themselves to hunt down and execute Nazis. I believe it would be the enormity of Nazi germany's crimes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cherno View Post
                I wonder if there were other instances in history were collaborators were treated the same way? Was it because of the enormity of Nazi Germany's crimes and France's (and Netherland's etc.) perceived humiliation from the swift defeats compared to previous conflicts?
                As Stonecutter said : Montagnards when french and US army left VietNam
                Harki (muslim auxiliaries) during Algerian war
                both were treated even more harshely

                For the reason, you have to understand French situation. It was both a traumatism (40 defeat making the defeated collaborationists traitors to the nation) and the split of the country (making it a borderline civil war)
                Milice policemen, french gendarmes hunted down, killed and tortured resistants sometimes without even being pushed by the nazis
                Hate for the germans (and by ricochet germans's friends) was also strong in a huge part of the population since 1914
                You had those collaborating, living great lives while the others were struggling to find food and clothes
                Plus those collaborating behaved sometimes more nazily than true nazis
                Vichy was borderline a totalitarian gov by some aspects

                All that trigered hate and hate in the same nation between same nationals can lead to harsh retaliations
                See how bloody can be civil wars between brothers, neighbors and cousins
                It was kinda the same thing in France, not openly, not a real civil war,, but something festering during 5 years

                Comment


                • #9
                  The way I see how a large part of France welcomed the armistice is a real desire for a conservative government, focused on roots and tradition after ten years of unrest, social engineering, recession and influx of refugees. It's sad that people found such relief in supporting Pétain and his clique. It hurt the french right for years, the only right-wing movement that made it through were the Christian-Democrats with a strong pan European vision.

                  Of course, beyond the Right, many pragmatists supported Vichy as the war was killing more men per day than WWI, that left such a scar on demographics that entire villages lost their young. And not mention the geographical aspect: much of WWI was fought on French soil. No nation suffered more than France during WWI. And it was only twenty years earlier.

                  The extra judiciary actions at the end of WWII are apalling and more often than not perpetrated by people who were'nt exactly the first to fight.

                  We can blame Pétain but many French people supported stopping the war at all cost and little by little accepted the unacceptable. People shaving women who had slept with German officers sometimes did much worse than those women.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Telmar View Post
                    The way I see how a large part of France welcomed the armistice is a real desire for a conservative government, focused on roots and tradition after ten years of unrest, social engineering, recession and influx of refugees. It's sad that people found such relief in supporting Pétain and his clique. It hurt the french right for years, the only right-wing movement that made it through were the Christian-Democrats with a strong pan European vision.
                    .
                    About that you had also a rampant very right leaning Right in the french society that was pretty sympathetic with authoritarians form of governation
                    A lot of those were pretty well placed in administration and army

                    A certain amount of high level officers were pro Royalists, pro Cagoules, pro Action Française and anti Republicans

                    IIRC one even said "je n'ai peut être pas eu les boches mais au moins j'ai eu la République"

                    For some high profiles it was also opportunism
                    Laval was first member of the left if not far left
                    Doriot was member of socialist youth
                    Déat was a former member of the radical party and SFIO

                    etc ....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mordoror. And many civil servanrs were the same ones named during the socialist FP years.

                      People simply doing their jobs were in the end as destructive as the ideologues.

                      That being said, confronted by such a situation, I can only hope I would make the right choice. I don't want to judge people too harshly, that's also why I dispise the extra-judicary mob justice at the liberation,

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To cover and scour this article entirely, the autor wrote a bit about those ''forced to work'' for the Germans. That was called Service Travail Obligatoire (STO: Mandatory work in Germany for the third Reich.)

                        Many unemployed and alledged homosexuals were sent there. While the nazi ideology is to kill the inferior, untermenschen, they also needed either canonfodders like the Bosniak Muslim division or the strong fists of foreign workers to be the 3rd Reich slave.

                        I can't bother to google it right now, but the high Nazi leader who implemented these forced labors was IIRC sentenced to life in prison after Nuremberg or was he hanged too? Not sure.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Telmar View Post
                          Mordoror. And many civil servanrs were the same ones named during the socialist FP years.

                          People simply doing their jobs were in the end as destructive as the ideologues.

                          That being said, confronted by such a situation, I can only hope I would make the right choice. I don't want to judge people too harshly, that's also why I dispise the extra-judicary mob justice at the liberation,
                          Yep, I think there were excesses, I have no problem with the squads of Jewish survivors that hunted down and killed Nazis in hiding, I cannot imagine having any mercy in my soul at that point for those people.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JakeScully View Post
                            To cover and scour this article entirely, the autor wrote a bit about those ''forced to work'' for the Germans. That was called Service Travail Obligatoire (STO: Mandatory work in Germany for the third Reich.)
                            The writer Alain Robbe-Grillet had to do that service and actually had a good time in Germany, frequently visiting theaters and seeing operas.

                            He wrote about the experience in his autobiography Le miroir qui revient (translated in English as Ghosts in the Mirror.) and talked a little about it in this Paris Review interview:

                            Some have appreciated the new way of speaking about the German occupation—the relationship of the French people with the occupiers—simply and without makeup. My parents were Germanophile. Well, they were Germanophile—so what? I don’t hide it. I don’t try to justify or condemn it—I tell the story. And this had never been done before.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JakeScully View Post
                              This is a decent article and a good read.

                              Many French nowadays remember the prostitutes or at least civilian French women who slept with German soldiers in order for ‘benefits’ whether that was food, money or other privileges.

                              The French had a solid memory and they ended up being head shaven and publicly humiliated and beaten.

                              No further comments about the summary executions that happened shortly after D-Day and the liberation.

                              Regarding those women whose hairs got cut by an angry mob, those who have read how cruel the Gestapo was toward French resistance and how Jean Moulin had every of his bone crushed until death and how the French women who resisted against Nazism had their breast cut off, I am thinking: hairs grow back.

                              Thanks for sharing.
                              And should we let Mobs (of uncertain biases) decide who gets retribution? I say this as Many Actual Collaborators got no such punishment, some even weaseled their way into Free France's new government

                              Comment

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