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The worst ally of Germany in WWII.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
    tl;dr - most of your post is bull and ignores how the war was actually fought.
    Yeah, its bs, unlike the half thruts mixed a lot with the myths from soviet propaganda that you present, right?

    Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
    About how the Romanian Army performed I know quite little - only that they were routinely schooled by Black Sea Fleet marines in the Crimea and failed around Stalingrad. Romanian performance at taking Odessa is nothing to brag about either - they took huge losses, got routinely successfully counterattacked and in the end they only marched into Odessa after it had been completely evacuated of troops & equipment.
    Actually we did the best in Crimea, where the situation was the other way around you say.
    Just look here, where a significant part of the medals were received
    http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

    About Odessa, the main reasons of Soviets retreat were the fact that a Romanian special assault unit had done a surprise raid and taken control of Odessa water plants, and following Soviet counterattacks couldn't take them back. Also Romanian army had advanced enough to put the Odessa harbour in the range of the heavy artillery, so even if the Soviet navy can still keep the sea route free they couldn't anymore reliably supply Odessa with troops and war materials. Soviet air force also couldn't obtain air supremacy in Odessa region, despite Romanian air force being significantly smaller.
    So at that point was just a question of time until ODessa would have fall, that's why the sudden, quick and massive evacuation ordered by Soviet high command, they did it as they still had a little window before to become impossible or way too dangerous, and transfered those troops in Crimea.
    Considering that our attacking forces were only sligthly more numerous than the defenders, who were well entreched in positions and better armed, and that pretty much all sieges of big, strategic cities produced lots of loses

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Radu View Post

      Yeah, its bs, unlike the half thruts mixed a lot with the myths from soviet propaganda that you present, right?
      Can you please be more specific? Where in my post did you see 'Soviet propaganda'? Is this just a catch-all term you use to invalidate any argument against you from me without bothering to address the individual points? Don't answer that.

      Actually we did the best in Crimea, where the situation was the other way around you say.
      Just look here, where a significant part of the medals were received
      http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

      About Odessa, the main reasons of Soviets retreat were the fact that a Romanian special assault unit had done a surprise raid and taken control of Odessa water plants, and following Soviet counterattacks couldn't take them back. Also Romanian army had advanced enough to put the Odessa harbour in the range of the heavy artillery, so even if the Soviet navy can still keep the sea route free they couldn't anymore reliably supply Odessa with troops and war materials. Soviet air force also couldn't obtain air supremacy in Odessa region, despite Romanian air force being significantly smaller.
      So at that point was just a question of time until ODessa would have fall, that's why the sudden, quick and massive evacuation ordered by Soviet high command, they did it as they still had a little window before to become impossible or way too dangerous, and transfered those troops in Crimea.
      I haven't read up about that battle to be honest, so you might be right - although I certainly wouldn't bet on it, you seem to be wrong on every issue I actually have knowledge about so I don't suppose there is any reason to take your word on it about Odessa either.

      Considering that our attacking forces were only sligthly more numerous than the defenders, who were well entreched in positions and better armed, and that pretty much all sieges of big, strategic cities produced lots of loses
      The Soviet forces were massively outnumbered in the beginning; and throughout the battle, even after receiving reinforcements.
      Like I said one can't really trust you. All you do is read biased articles on Wikipedia and even manage to misinterpret the info from that too.

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      • #33
        Considering that our attacking forces were only sligthly more numerous than the defenders, who were well entreched in positions and better armed, and that pretty much all sieges of big, strategic cities produced lots of loses
        Even wiki disagree with you (160 000 men vs 35 000 men at the beginning of the siege/battle which is a 4.5 vs 1 ratio which is above the theorical 3 vs 1 ratio considered to be enough for a siege warfare). Raises interesting questions about the credibility of the others parts of your post
        In any cases the 4th romanian army (alone if you forgets german support) was between 14 and 17 InfDiv including Royal Guards, 1 Armor Div, 1 Cav Brigade vs 3 Rifle division, 2 Marine Regiment and 1 NKVD Regiment.
        Talk about "slightly more numerous" again
        Last edited by Mordoror; 11-01-2017, 12:53 PM.

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        • #34
          It is worth noting that Romania contributed more troops to the Ostfront than the rest of the German allies combined. I doubt Germany would have had the success they had if they were missing the two entire armies Romania brought to the table. And they took frankly appalling casualties in the Stalingrad debacle.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by flamming_python View Post

            The Soviets weren't numerically superior where it mattered in the first part of the war -
            The Soviet losses where that high that the winter of 1941 probably saved them from being defeated. Hitler's involvement and logistical issues where a blessing to the Soviets. .


            Total German military casualties according to wiki in 1941:
            1,000,000+
            Total Soviet military casualties by 1941:
            4,973,820
            Based on Soviet archives:[15]
            566,852 killed in action
            235,339 died from non-combat causes
            1,336,147 sick or wounded via combat and non-combat causes
            2,335,482 missing in action or captured
            500,000 Soviet reservists captured while still mobilizing

            According to AOK Wehrmacht reports:

            3,355,499 captured by the Germans

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Jumper View Post

              The Soviet losses where that high that the winter of 1941 probably saved them from being defeated. Hitler's involvement and logistical issues where a blessing to the Soviets. .


              Total German military casualties according to wiki in 1941:
              1,000,000+
              Total Soviet military casualties by 1941:
              4,973,820
              Based on Soviet archives:[15]
              566,852 killed in action
              235,339 died from non-combat causes
              1,336,147 sick or wounded via combat and non-combat causes
              2,335,482 missing in action or captured
              500,000 Soviet reservists captured while still mobilizing

              According to AOK Wehrmacht reports:

              3,355,499 captured by the Germans
              Yes and they were still outnumbered on the front line everywhere where they were engaged. The Germans massed and attacked in force.
              It doesn't matter how big an army you have if most of it is not being brought to bear, orders are contradicting each other, high command doesn't know what's going on and everyone's retreat is being outpaced by the enemy's advance.

              Whatever issues the Germans had the Soviets had worse.

              The real reason the German advance slowed down was not because of the winter but because of the autumn rains, continuously lengthening supply lines, Soviet organization increasing and mobilization of more manpower and divisions into tenable defensive positions, meeting the 2nd Soviet defensive line (and finally the 3rd one), desperate Soviet counterattacks buying time if only a little, increasing partisan activity, lack of a warm welcome for the Germans further east like they got in some Western USSR territories and a whole bunch of other factors working in tandem. Such tenacious defenses as those in the Brest Fortress, Odessa, Sevastopol, Kiev, Rostov, Oranienbaum pocket, etc... also conspired to put the Germans further behind schedule.

              Far from helping, the early winter actually froze the ground and helped German logisitics, whose trucks were literally bogged down in the mud. But by that time the advance had already slowed and it was too late to capture Moscow or advance further than the Ukraine.
              The Soviet winter offensive of December '41 pushed back the Germans several hundred km and secured the line; but the fact it happened in the winter was incidental to it's success - the German fuel freezing and lack of winter uniforms contributed to its success but not as much as the fact that the Germans were basically overextended by then anyway and the Soviets had prepared lots of fresh divisions.
              Last edited by flamming_python; 11-01-2017, 01:10 PM.

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              • #37
                Soviet Union

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jumper View Post

                  The Soviet losses where that high that the winter of 1941 probably saved them from being defeated. Hitler's involvement and logistical issues where a blessing to the Soviets. .


                  Total German military casualties according to wiki in 1941:
                  1,000,000+
                  Total Soviet military casualties by 1941:
                  4,973,820
                  Based on Soviet archives:[15]
                  566,852 killed in action
                  235,339 died from non-combat causes
                  1,336,147 sick or wounded via combat and non-combat causes
                  2,335,482 missing in action or captured
                  500,000 Soviet reservists captured while still mobilizing

                  According to AOK Wehrmacht reports:

                  3,355,499 captured by the Germans
                  Just handling and processing those numbers of prisoners, if only to a quick death, would have a huge impact on German logistics that I bet they hadn't allowed for in their invasion plans on anything like that scale.

                  Much is said about why Hitler let the Brits escape at Dunkirk. I suspect that the reason was as simple as Hitler didn't want to have 100s of thousands of Brits on his hands that he had to look after. No way could he have 'eliminated' or slave labour camped them.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jumper View Post

                    The Soviet losses where that high that the winter of 1941 probably saved them from being defeated. Hitler's involvement and logistical issues where a blessing to the Soviets. .


                    Total German military casualties according to wiki in 1941:
                    1,000,000+
                    Total Soviet military casualties by 1941:
                    4,973,820
                    Based on Soviet archives:[15]
                    566,852 killed in action
                    235,339 died from non-combat causes
                    1,336,147 sick or wounded via combat and non-combat causes
                    2,335,482 missing in action or captured
                    500,000 Soviet reservists captured while still mobilizing

                    According to AOK Wehrmacht reports:

                    3,355,499 captured by the Germans
                    I am sorry, but what do Soviet and German casualties have to do with the acknowledged (by academics and historians) fact that the Germans enjoyed force superiority at point of contact during their offensives at the onset of the war? Are you really trying to refute these facts?


                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jumper View Post

                      The Soviet losses where that high that the winter of 1941 probably saved them from being defeated. Hitler's involvement and logistical issues where a blessing to the Soviets. .

                      As FP wrotte, general winter is an urban legend. What hurt the german advance are (in order of importance)
                      Autumn Rasputisa
                      Lack of correct roads/railroad infrastructures (combined with above)
                      Overstreched lines impacting logistics
                      Kessel operational doctrine (reducing any and all pockets takes time and ressources) combined with line above
                      Resilience/resistance of some red army groups (while some disintgrated enterely at first contact, several were hard nuts to crack) combined with the line above
                      Increasing density of opposition when approaching second defensive positions/lines that were better prepared




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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by flamming_python View Post

                        Can you please be more specific? Where in my post did you see 'Soviet propaganda'? Is this just a catch-all term you use to invalidate any argument against you from me without bothering to address the individual points?

                        Don't answer that.
                        Ookey, lol

                        Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
                        , you seem to be wrong on every issue I actually have knowledge about
                        Like what?

                        Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
                        The Soviet forces were massively outnumbered in the beginning; and throughout the battle, even after receiving reinforcements.
                        Like I said one can't really trust you. All you do is read biased articles on Wikipedia and even manage to misinterpret the info from that too.
                        That link I posted surely wasn't a wikipedia one, but whatever

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
                          As it was though the Brest Fortress resisted for longer than either the whole of France or Poland.
                          What are you talking about? The Polish campaign lasted for 35 days, while the Brest fortress resisted for 7 days:
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Brest_Fortress
                          I can provide you a direct example when Poles were fighting much better than the Soviets despite not being protected by any fortress:
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Westerplatte
                          An infantry company that numbered 182 soldiers (I don't know where wikipedia took 209 from) resisted roughly 18 times bigger German forces as long as the entire Brest fortress (7 days). Moreover, the Poles inflicted very significant losses upon the Germans. I mean the German casualties were 1.5 times higher than the Polish company's size, while the Soviets did not even inflict casualties in amount of 25% of the Soviet garrison's size.
                          The Germans could have captured the Brest fortress much earlier, but they changed their tactics after the first 1-2 days. Actually, they reduced the amount of troops required to siege the fortress, as they needed them elsewhere, hoping that the fortress would be taken anyway and resorted to pounding it with artillery and aviation.
                          It was the Soviet Union where Germans achieved the highest pace of advance per day in the first stage of war.
                          Last edited by Musashi; 14-01-2017, 11:20 AM.

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