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  • USA vs USSR in 1945

    What if the US and Soviet Union had gone to war right after WWII? I think the US would be able to push the USSR back behind its 1939 borders for the following reasons

    ​1. the Red Army had already lost well over 10 million soldiers and bleed themselves white defeating the Wehrmacht.

    2. the US had the world's strongest strategic air force and could fly distances the Luftwaffe could only dream of. B-17s and B-29s could bomb the hell out of Soviet factories and despite having a large number of aircraft as well the Red Air Force had nothing which could reach the US industry.

    ​3. The massive strength of the USN would be fairly useful. Even though the USSR didn't need to import much from the sea. the number of carrier air wings could prove very destructive when launched from the Baltic and Black Sea's.as well as strikes in far east are another thing the USSR never had to deal with when fighting the Germans. Not to mention the six Marine divisions and a good number of Army infantry divisions who could conduct amphibious landings.

    ​4. The US had 41% of the world's industry. The USSR had only 14%.

    ​5. The US had lots of German POWs who could be rearmed and sent against the USSR.

    What do the rest of you think?

  • #2
    Everyone was exhausted. There was no desire for another war, either from the USSR or the USA (or indeed from the UK) populace or leadership.

    Comment


    • #3
      At that time a war was unwinable for both sides. Another war would have meant millions of casulties on boths sides.

      Comment


      • #4
        The US would (could have) won. USSR while winning WW2 too was basically on its knees with millions soldiers dead and dozen millions civilians.

        Anyway, would have never happened. .. The WW2 was rough enough for either side, and Europe was in ruin anyway.

        Europeans have had enough already.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          What if the US and Soviet Union had gone to war right after WWII? I think the US would be able to push the USSR back behind its 1939 borders for the following reasons
          Define ''Right after'' WW2?

          I ask as the US demobilization was in full swing. Once Japan Surrendered it was a mad rush to get as many men back home as possible, the political pressure from families, and the G.I.'s themselves was enormous. 1,000,000 were discharged in December 1945 alone. The Active US forces were reduced by 90% between June 1945 (12,000,000+ total force) and June 1947(1.5 million total force).

          My Dad had gone away in 1940 for 1 years training and was sitting in Germany in October 45 still waiting to get home. He had to write his father to get a congressman to make a complaint as he had way more than the 85 points needed. But the Occupation force wanted Switchboard Operators and he had initially been trained as one before going into Tank Destroyers and then the Armored Infantry in North Africa, Sicily, Normandy and NWE. He was more than a little pissed off to see replacements who were drafted in January 45 being sent home for discharge in September 45 while he was told he was necessary for a skill he hadn't used since before Pearl Harbor.

          IF such a war happened before Japan Surrendered then the Demobilization would have stopped dead in its tracks. Even the Draft had reduced to 50K per month by that summer

          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          ​1. the Red Army had already lost well over 10 million soldiers and bleed themselves white defeating the Wehrmacht.
          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          2. the US had the world's strongest strategic air force and could fly distances the Luftwaffe could only dream of. B-17s and B-29s could bomb the hell out of Soviet factories and despite having a large number of aircraft as well the Red Air Force had nothing which could reach the US industry.
          There the US/RAF had a quantitative and qualitative edge. The Soviet Air Force was a Tactical one like the Luftwaffe had been. Even barring Atomic weapons, there was no way to match the USAAF or RAF.

          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          3. The massive strength of the USN would be fairly useful. Even though the USSR didn't need to import much from the sea. the number of carrier air wings could prove very destructive when launched from the Baltic and Black Sea's.as well as strikes in far east are another thing the USSR never had to deal with when fighting the Germans. Not to mention the six Marine divisions and a good number of Army infantry divisions who could conduct amphibious landings.
          Stopping Lend Lease alone was going to hurt the Soviets as the US provided enormous amounts of supplies. The US and UK also had the Amphibious capability to land forces against any Soviet shoreline in force

          Also EVERY US Infantry division was trained in Amphibious landing, not just the ones like 1/3/4/34/24 ID


          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          ​4. The US had 41% of the world's industry. The USSR had only 14%.
          There would have been some difficulties due to cancellation of contracts in early 45 and VE day. Also in no small amount there would have been industrial sabotage by the Communists in the USA fomenting strikes and sabotage and trying to sway public opinion.

          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          ​5. The US had lots of German POWs who could be rearmed and sent against the USSR.
          The Unknown, We know Patton would have used German Officers for his staff and planning and there could be a source of men willing to fight alongside the US to liberate Prussia with recent combat experience.

          Originally posted by Negan View Post
          What do the rest of you think?
          Thankfully we will never know for sure

          Comment


          • #6
            US and the west had the industrial+military+men power, add the countires that did not see the Soviet "liberation" as a liberation, and on top of that add the new nuclear weapons... US would have won. However, as mentioned by others members, the issue was an issue of oportunity and will regardless of the reasons listed in the OP.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Negan View Post
              What if the US and Soviet Union had gone to war right after WWII? I think the US would be able to push the USSR back behind its 1939 borders for the following reasons

              ​1. the Red Army had already lost well over 10 million soldiers and bleed themselves white defeating the Wehrmacht.

              2. the US had the world's strongest strategic air force and could fly distances the Luftwaffe could only dream of. B-17s and B-29s could bomb the hell out of Soviet factories and despite having a large number of aircraft as well the Red Air Force had nothing which could reach the US industry.

              ​3. The massive strength of the USN would be fairly useful. Even though the USSR didn't need to import much from the sea. the number of carrier air wings could prove very destructive when launched from the Baltic and Black Sea's.as well as strikes in far east are another thing the USSR never had to deal with when fighting the Germans. Not to mention the six Marine divisions and a good number of Army infantry divisions who could conduct amphibious landings.

              ​4. The US had 41% of the world's industry. The USSR had only 14%.

              ​5. The US had lots of German POWs who could be rearmed and sent against the USSR.

              What do the rest of you think?
              I think this is bravado. In fact they faced each other in Korea - the war which was mainly fought using WW2 technologies. To be honest I didnt noticed the overwhelming superiority of American side there.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mashiach View Post

                I think this is bravado. In fact they faced each other in Korea - the war which was mainly fought using WW2 technologies. To be honest I didn't noticed the overwhelming superiority of American side there.
                You might have also noted it wasnt total war as practised in WW2. Truman didn't think it prudent to commit fully to Korea since he thought Europe would be the main fight.

                Also much of the US Army in Korea initially had been on soft occupation duty, unlike the men in 1945

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Linedoggie View Post
                  You might have also noted it wasnt total war as practised in WW2. Truman didn't think it prudent to commit fully to Korea since he thought Europe would be the main fight.

                  Also much of the US Army in Korea initially had been on soft occupation duty, unlike the men in 1945
                  Stalin fought at half-strenght as well

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mashiach View Post

                    Stalin fought at half-strenght as well
                    Exactly so Korea isnt a good example

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Soviets would manage to keep up fighting for a few years but eventually they would still lose because of devastation USSR suffered. In the beginning, Soviets were seen as liberators in countries like France and Great Britain (the countries they didn't liberate), it is only later propaganda machine made them occupants, no common folk wanted to fight against Soviets. It would be a bloodbath for both sides, would both sides had enough of strength to go through it again? Stalin could only hope nukes were not used and ordinary people in the West start protesting against this war, that would save him, nothing else.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Linedoggie View Post
                        Define ''Right after'' WW2?


                        Sometime in 1945 basically. Probably in the summer months.


                        I ask as the US demobilization was in full swing. Once Japan Surrendered it was a mad rush to get as many men back home as possible, the political pressure from families, and the G.I.'s themselves was enormous. 1,000,000 were discharged in December 1945 alone. The Active US forces were reduced by 90% between June 1945 (12,000,000+ total force) and June 1947(1.5 million total force).

                        My Dad had gone away in 1940 for 1 years training and was sitting in Germany in October 45 still waiting to get home. He had to write his father to get a congressman to make a complaint as he had way more than the 85 points needed. But the Occupation force wanted Switchboard Operators and he had initially been trained as one before going into Tank Destroyers and then the Armored Infantry in North Africa, Sicily, Normandy and NWE. He was more than a little pissed off to see replacements who were drafted in January 45 being sent home for discharge in September 45 while he was told he was necessary for a skill he hadn't used since before Pearl Harbor.

                        IF such a war happened before Japan Surrendered then the Demobilization would have stopped dead in its tracks. Even the Draft had reduced to 50K per month by that summer


                        I just learned something today. Thanks!


                        There the US/RAF had a quantitative and qualitative edge. The Soviet Air Force was a Tactical one like the Luftwaffe had been. Even barring Atomic weapons, there was no way to match the USAAF or RAF.


                        I don't think it would be "easy". I am sure that the USAAF and RAF could win out over the Reds but I think it would be one helleva fight. I have doubt the death toll would be high on both sides.

                        Stopping Lend Lease alone was going to hurt the Soviets as the US provided enormous amounts of supplies. The US and UK also had the Amphibious capability to land forces against any Soviet shoreline in force


                        Shutting down Lease lend would hurt the Soviets a great deal but they still had a lot of stuff from it like those trucks and even if they couldn't reinforce those numbers the standing one were fairly large. and the Soviets could crank out T-34s and IS-2s (and at this stage IS-3s) like mad not to mention fighter aircraft. The US had just gotten the first of its M26 Pershing's but the main stock was still mostly made up of M4 Sherman's with those sorry pea shooters called 75mm's. On most military history websites there is thread after thread devoted to the debate of panther/tiger vs T-34 and IS series. But at least in 1945 the T-34 would totally womp the Shermans all day and all night. They would need upgraded guns like the 76mm to hold their own against commie armor.

                        Also EVERY US Infantry division was trained in Amphibious landing, not just the ones like 1/3/4/34/24 ID


                        When did I say they weren't. Some just had a lot more experience than others.

                        There would have been some difficulties due to cancellation of contracts in early 45 and VE day. Also in no small amount there would have been industrial sabotage by the Communists in the USA fomenting strikes and sabotage and trying to sway public opinion.


                        I have no doubt Patton would gleefully welcome a corps of elite panzer divisions. I just don't know how well that would go politcally.

                        The Unknown, We know Patton would have used German Officers for his staff and planning and there could be a source of men willing to fight alongside the US to liberate Prussia with recent combat experience.


                        Patton hated politics. and that is why people love him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mashiach View Post

                          I think this is bravado. In fact they faced each other in Korea - the war which was mainly fought using WW2 technologies. To be honest I didnt noticed the overwhelming superiority of American side there.

                          The NKPA caught the US with its pants down. But once the US got its shit together and halted the North Koreans at Pusan and then destroyed it after the Inchon landings So if that is to be used as a example the USSR would make major head way at first and then be pushed way back.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Given the sizeable land forces advantage of the USSR as well as the much more experienced officer corps, in the event of hostilities the Allies would eventually be pushed out of Europe after long and bitter fighting and barring significant and unforseen tactical and strategic fuck-ups (I am sure I don't need to mention that Navy and Airforce don't capture and hold ground and therefore can't win wars by themselves). After that, a long term campaign of strategic bombings and amphibious incursions would set in, the result of which is difficult to predict....

                            If you don't believe me, feel free to "run the simulation" in HoI3





                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hmmm. If for some insane reason it really did come down to it, in 1945 the US had just geared up and was ready for producing 3 atomic bombs per month to be used against the Japanese in Operation Olympic.

                              ​While the USSR had considerably more experienced senior officers (and was especially experienced in large scale Army level operations), it doesn't matter too much once your lines of communication are glowing in the dark. The Red Army would advance against the Germans (usually advancing between 100 and 300km per major operation) but it would then take several months to build up supplies and rebuild logistical support (especially the railways) in order to do it again. That simply wouldn't be possible in such an non-benign environment.

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