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Bundeswehr / German Armed Forces General Discussion Thread

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  • Originally posted by tluassa View Post
    And (sadly not in good quality) lone fighter training
    FYI: EKL (I/II) is called "Commando course" in english tluassa .


    • You are right with the terminology. But I think it is a bit different from other commando courses.

      The Jagdkampf for example is a special German and Austrian type of fighting.

      In the past the EKL was mandatory for all Heer officers.

      Today it is "should or can" like everything....

      Single Jagdkampf platoons taken out of ordinary units would do this fighting. They would have operated around 14 days on their own.

      A friend of mine did it as paratrooper.

      Today it is only done in Hammelburg.

      And it is quite different from the past - the division of EKL I and EKL II.


      • EKL is still mandatory for every officer in a combat or combat support unit. It's not mandatory for NCO's however and it never was.
        "Jagdkampf" or leading a "Jagdkommando" is still taught in the EKL but only in the EKL II.
        I think there are few courses that are comparable to the EKL. Ranger School is the first thing that comes to my mind.


        • I had the impression that all combat officers "should" have it.

          The EKL I alone is basically a kind of survival training only.


          • Don't know if already posted, most probably yes:

            The Bundeswehr Journal




              The media is claiming that the new F125 isn't worth anything? What's the actual truth?


              • The last paragraph.
                Finally a civilian reacting the way Bundeswehr personnel do.


                • I have the feeling your engineers lack practical knowledge in some respects. The feedback loop is broken.


                  • I'm reading between the lines and it looks to me like it was project managed to death. With every PM wanting to stick their oar in and make changes hold things up just for the sake of making changes and holding things up - probably because they recognised that a project this big with this much of a chance to get some self-promotion doesn't come along often.

                    If it was up to me I'd shoot every second project manager in the world and use their remains as fish bait. The majority of them create nothing but meetings and CO2.


                    • Originally posted by primer View Post
                      I have the feeling your engineers lack practical knowledge in some respects. The feedback loop is broken.
                      Obviously it is better to have first hand practical knowledge, but that lack of knowledge on the engineers' part can be overcome if the PM and procurement department step out of the way and let the engineers and end users work directly together. Tangentially, I can understand this with army equipment to some extent as there aren't a lot of design engineers that come from army ranks, but navies have lots of engineers and technical people within their ranks. It should make communications easier.


                      • Germany's military deficiencies are entirely of political doing. I was wrong to attribute them to money alone.

                        On the one hand funding is insufficient – not due to a rivalry of governmental budgets, as America's right would have you believe; the social welfare budget could be twice as high as today and still some would oppose any surge of military spending. As a result, the state doesn't spring for the required number of dedicated solutions, so planners try and cramp as many solutions as possible into one project. This isn't an entirely German phenomenon but we've grown so accustomed to it we've even coined a saying: die eierlegende Wollmichsau verlangen, literally 'seeking a sow that yields milk, eggs and wool'. F125 is one such beast.

                        Another part of the problem is formed by a lobby of members of parliament in whose districts the defense industry operates. Don't forget Germany is a parliamentary republic; its parliament is way more powerful than its counterparts e.g. in Britain or America, and the defense committe gets to say yay or nay on every new matter of expense. In 1989, Germany had had the biggest land army in allied Europe and a defense industry sized accordingly. Ever since the defense sector has shed some feathers but it never shrunk as much as demand did. Many jobs are on the line. So whenever the military has some bucks to spend, the lobby rears its head and demands the product be procured locally, even if the local industry doesn't have the product in its portfolio yet.

                        Antitrust legislation poses another stumbling block. During the Cold War, all matters of defense were prioritized accordingly and though even back in the day the German military didn't get all it wanted, it could approach the manufacturers of its chosing more often than not. Today, defense procurement is just another chunk of civil spending and just about each roll of toilet paper must have its own public tender to keep corruption to an absolute minimum. What sounds good in theory is actually a red tape hell. Sometimes the bidding process will even end with bitter rivals getting one half of the contract each.

                        During the Afghanistan War this aspect was recognized as a threat but they only did so much about it. After a tough struggle, the army got a budget to buy off-the-shelf according to its most urgent operations needs; but this concession never applied to large projects anyway.

                        Bringing Stuttgart's railway station and Berlin's new airport into the equation is quite idiotic, by the way. Both projects were massively delayed by public protest, you wouldn't believe to which extent. Berlin didn't really want a new airport, and environmentalists fought the government tooth and nail over every goddamn tree standing in Stuttgart 21 's way.


                        • Amalagament of issues. One also has to be careful with Bundeswehr officials making "acceptances".

                          I personally witnessed idiotic stuff. BUT the industry also oftenly also promises new stuff they never have done and naturally experience dffficulties.

                          These kinds of new ships are packed full with systems. I still have to read up on it.

                          WELT article with short vid on top:


                          Germanys defence is a shame for our industrial and economical size. We could easily field everything from nukes to carriers.

                          Hopefully this will change at a point were all those "Bedenkenträger" "chin pullers" have left the field.


                          • Originally posted by picanha View Post
                            Germanys defence is a shame for our industrial and economical size. We could easily field everything from nukes to carriers.

                            Hopefully this will change at a point were all those "Bedenkenträger" "chin pullers" have left the field.
                            Not gona happen. It's long since become the "cultural default". Most germans don't give a fuck about the military (after all we're surrounded by "friends" and all those lambasting us for the state of the Bundeswehr only want us to play vassal, auxiliary or lapdog for their foreign policy stunts), politicians avoid it unless they can shuffle deals towards certain defense contractors to look good in their respective electoral districts and other societal groups either oppose it on principle and "just because ..." or would never speak out in favor of it (could bring bad press, you know). Anything that moves in political Berlin WRT the Bundeswehr is either imagination (because a dead worm doesn't move), has to do with "industrial subsidy on a different budget code" or is a political fig leaf.


                            • ^^^ sad but true can't go on like that.

                              Another vid from January 2017 about the F125 and "was sie drauf hat" ...back then


                              Today it is a pile of never know
                              Last edited by picanha; 15-01-2018, 11:57 PM.


                              • Exercise Iron Wolf - Lithuania:

                                Gebirgsjäger back home - Bad Reichenhall 11.01.2018