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  • Originally posted by Lance G View Post
    I was reading that according to "official" US & NATO sources. More Russian soldiers been killed in Ukraine than the USA has lost in the entire war on terror in combat?? Anyone else see that information? Does anyone have any information on how many "Little Green Men" the Russians have lost in Ukraine so far?
    Maybe 50-100? Hard to say, there were never that many to begin with and they only came in in numbers when the Ukrainians were advancing all-out.

    The thing is that the US and NATO consider themselves to be these invincible armies, with the best training, the uber equipment and tanks, the best technology.
    About Russia they only ever talk in disparaging terms (unless they want to justify raising defence budgets or funding an expensive weapons program). Russia they give credit for advances only in the underhanded and rogue tactics - cyberwarfare, propaganda news agencies, buying off Western politicians and the like. Yes when it comes to fighting in the open Russia would surely fall apart as a vampire exposed to sunlight - I mean nothing can stand up to those US Carrier Groups, EU Battle groups, NATO training & discipline, the F-22 Raptor, Leo 2 MBT, A-10 Warthog and all the rest of it.

    So one can imagine their shock when in straight up warfare small numbers of Russian SF and artillery lighted up Ukrainian armored columns to the last vehicle w/o much difficulty, and Russian-trained DNR/LNR tankists smashed the advancing Ukrainian columns.
    I mean of course the Ukrainian Army is also an inferior eastern one, with inferior eastern tech and Soviet training. But still this should not have happened - it had Western advisers training them, helping plan their ops. It had those NATO counter-battery radars.
    So naturally these analystd gravitate to the only rational explanation they can find - that Russia intervened with its horde of conscripts and rusty old equipment and turned the tide by sheer numbers; naturally though at a huge cost that only said Asiatic despot societies can bear.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lance G View Post
      I was reading that according to "official" US & NATO sources. More Russian soldiers been killed in Ukraine than the USA has lost in the entire war on terror in combat?? Anyone else see that information? Does anyone have any information on how many "Little Green Men" the Russians have lost in Ukraine so far?
      I somehow doubt that their losses exceed 7000 deaths but it should be noted that its a much larger theater and a war that has lasted 16 years.
      Russian casualties can be expected to become relatively higher as they are operating under certain self-imposed limitations like they can't medevac their wounded with helicopters to their more advanced hospitals inside Russia and do not use CAS.

      Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
      So one can imagine their shock when in straight up warfare small numbers of Russian SF and artillery lighted up Ukrainian armored columns to the last vehicle w/o much difficulty, and Russian-trained DNR/LNR tankists smashed the advancing Ukrainian columns.
      How about you make up your mind about russian troops in Ukraine?
      Last edited by Gumiman; 07-01-2017, 04:46 AM. Reason: addition

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      • Originally posted by Gumiman View Post

        How about you make up your mind about russian troops in Ukraine?
        You must have me confused with somebody else; I myself have never disputed it.

        What I disputed is that the DNR/LNR armies are mostly made up of Russian soldiers instead of locals, or that they had been present there in any substantial numbers; a claim against which I've presented many sources in debates past and present, and my opponents have been able to present no evidence in favour of other than OMGPutin!

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        • Originally posted by flamming_python View Post
          Maybe 50-100? Hard to say, there were never that many to begin with and they only came in in numbers when the Ukrainians were advancing all-out.
          I'd argue less than that.

          That is i'm sure there was covert effort through the rank and file of Russian military branches to gather up volunteers. But those guys would be going in fully knowing that they would be operating outside of military structures and under plausable deniability. Basically batcha coming to the barracks and asking in vague terms if they want to contribute to efforts of national impotance in "civilian life". If they were removed from military service lists as they went in then you can't say that they were part of Russian Military. In that case you need to count in those that went on retirement or left army all the way from 1991 in the calculations likewise. In which case the whole point of having "Russian army losses in Ukraine becomes moot".

          I don't think Russian Military has an ability to send people in conflict zone without notifying them before hand or going through appropriate legal channels. If my regiment would be send to Ukraine without governmental approval as if it didn't exist there to begin for months at a time outside of our task and allocated necessary support functions. The first thing i'd do would take a locals phone and make a call home to pick me up or to raise shit. Take photos and post pictures on reddit of me, my soldiers pass and my platoon or simply walk back to the border. I can imagine the court martial hearing for discarding my duty in active combat zone that i've officially never was in anyways.

          So the whole story of Russians on every corner doesn't pan out for me. They seemed to have limited their involvement to control, organisation and supply efforts. The only time i remember where both Ukr/Rebel sources were in full rumor mill mode about Russian involvement was around Illovaisk. You could actually see the bullshit be put aside as ukranian politicians collectively tightened their sphincters for a week. After they realised that for all intents and purposes it was a limited operation they proceeded to get back to the pompous rethoric.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lance G View Post
            I was reading that according to "official" US & NATO sources. More Russian soldiers been killed in Ukraine than the USA has lost in the entire war on terror in combat?? Anyone else see that information? Does anyone have any information on how many "Little Green Men" the Russians have lost in Ukraine so far?
            Okay, now that I have coffee in system I'm gonna say that this claim that more Russian Soldiers have fallen in Ukraine than US Soldiers have fallen in the GWOT is pants on head retarded.

            Let's look at some figures:

            Troops who lost their lives in the GWOT:

            Operation Enduring Freedom: 2,300
            Operation Iraqi Freedom: 4,500
            = 6,800 total losses

            War in Donbass:

            Armed Combatant Losses:
            UAF(Ukraine) losses: 3,200
            UAFN(Rebel) losses: 4,100
            =7,300 total losses on both sides.

            You're telling me that Russia lost more than 6,800+ soldiers? Akin to the number of combatants killed on BOTH SIDES?

            10PutinFacePalmPics

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            • Graham Phillips posted a video filmed in Pervomaisk.

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              • Originally posted by HisRoyalHighness View Post

                Okay, now that I have coffee in system I'm gonna say that this claim that more Russian Soldiers have fallen in Ukraine than US Soldiers have fallen in the GWOT is pants on head retarded.

                Let's look at some figures:

                Troops who lost their lives in the GWOT:

                Operation Enduring Freedom: 2,300
                Operation Iraqi Freedom: 4,500
                = 6,800 total losses

                War in Donbass:

                Armed Combatant Losses:
                UAF(Ukraine) losses: 3,200
                UAFN(Rebel) losses: 4,100
                =7,300 total losses on both sides.

                You're telling me that Russia lost more than 6,800+ soldiers? Akin to the number of combatants killed on BOTH SIDES?

                10PutinFacePalmPics
                Well it seems that they accepted that Ukraine is gonna become part of Russia in near future

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                • & Patrick Lancaster is still there.

                  Patrick Lancaster ‏@PLnewstoday 12h12 hours ago

                  Breaking residential area Kulikovo village in DPR controlled terr. has come under artillery fire from Ukraine terr. 4 homes dammaged

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                  • Wow, just wow!
                    Francis is indeed a great Pope, and his recent position should give everyone pause to think about the rights and wrongs of the Donbass crisis :

                    For this “dream” is needed to twist the heads of anyone who is against it. The Vatican’s ambassador Archbishop Claudio Gugerotti gave his blessing for the change. Toward the close of the year the Holy Father arrived in Luhansk People’s Republic and delivered a sermon during a religious service in the main Catholic church in Lugansk.
                    The Papal Nuncio pointedly reported on the successful cooperation between the people’s republics of Donbass and the authorities. “The fundamental and chief purpose of the visit is to witness the closeness and affection of the Pope to the people who live here on the eve of the Christmas holidays,” the Vatican ambassador told reporters in Luhansk. The day before, the archbishop visited Donetsk to bless all believers on behalf of the Pope.
                    “The greatest joy that I can bring and give you are the warmest embrace and blessing from the Holy Father Pope Francis… Think about the fact that there is a representative of the Pope with you now, only because the Pope himself cannot come, but know that he would love to be among you,” — said Gugerotti, during a sermon to the congregation.

                    https://southfront.org/ukrainian-mai...-empty-handed/
                    This is the real shocker, but the remainder of that piece is not devoid of interest. Viktor Pinchuk is taking, near the beginning, a very realistic position on what realistic steps need to be taken to restore peace to the region...

                    Comment


                    • Ukraine Must Make Painful Compromises for Peace With Russia
                      - Crimea should not get in the way of a deal that ends the war. The lives that will be saved are worth it.
                      • Ukraine should consider temporarily eliminating European Union membership from our stated goals for the near future. We can build a European country, be a privileged partner, and later discuss joining.

                      • While we maintain our position that Crimea is part of Ukraine and must be returned, Crimea must not get in the way of a deal that ends the war in the east on an equitable basis. It will take Ukraine 15 to 20 years to generate enough economic growth and stabilize our infrastructure, social safety net and financial system. Everyone from Crimea will then want to live in this future Ukraine—just as East Germans wanted to become part of West Germany.

                      • Conflict in the east was initiated from abroad and is not a genuine autonomy movement or civil war. There will not be conditions for fair elections until Ukraine has full control over its territory. But we may have to overlook this truth and accept local elections. Such compromises may mean letting down Ukrainians from the east who have suffered enormously. But if this is what it takes to demonstrate Ukraine’s commitment to peaceful reunification, then we may have to make this compromise to save thousands of lives.

                      We must focus on helping those who had to leave their hometowns, and cannot return to live under repressive and unsafe conditions, by offering them all possible support to rebuild their lives in a new reality.

                      • Finally, let’s accept that Ukraine will not join NATO in the near- or midterm. The offer is not on the table, and if it were, it could lead to an international crisis of unprecedented scope. For now, we should pursue an alternative security arrangement and accept neutrality as our near-term vision for the future.
                      The most interesting part is that this article is from Victor Pinchuk, fourth-richest Ukrainian and son-in-law of former president Kutchma.
                      I wonder if he is doing that because he thinks that the situation is getting out of control.
                      Most oligarchs have lost a lot of money in the last years, the ones richer than Pinchuk even their main assets.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nansouty View Post
                        Wow, just wow!
                        Francis is indeed a great Pope, and his recent position should give everyone pause to think about the rights and wrongs of the Donbass crisis :



                        This is the real shocker, but the remainder of that piece is not devoid of interest. Viktor Pinchuk is taking, near the beginning, a very realistic position on what realistic steps need to be taken to restore peace to the region...
                        Wow! thank you for posting this article. I add this article and comments on facebook by Ivan Katchanovski.

                        Ivan Katchanovski
                        1 hr ·
                        The head of a leading Ukrainian think-tank who previously served in various government positions in charge of European integration proposes to resolve the conflict in Ukraine by adopting neutrality, leasing Sevastopol to Russia, adopting a North Ireland Easter agreement type deal concerning Crimea, integrating Donbas into Ukraine, extending the EU free trade zone to Russia, and normalizing relations between Ukraine and Russia. Such a plan after the Yanukovych government overthrow might have prevented the Russian annexation of Crimea and the separatist war in Donbas. But now it would not be realistic because it would entail Russia giving back de jure Crimea and abandoning its de facto client states in Donbas. But this plan is another evidence of rapid reorientation in Ukraine because of the US presidential elections outcome. Any proposals that suggested a prevention or a peaceful resolution of the conflict in Ukraine with help of any such compromise deal were previously rejected out of hand. Now Ukraine is left with the difficult to sustain status-quo or with prospects of a much worse peace deal.

                        http://world.apostrophe.ua/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mitleser1987 View Post
                          Ukraine Must Make Painful Compromises for Peace With Russia
                          - Crimea should not get in the way of a deal that ends the war. The lives that will be saved are worth it.


                          The most interesting part is that this article is from Victor Pinchuk, fourth-richest Ukrainian and son-in-law of former president Kutchma.
                          I wonder if he is doing that because he thinks that the situation is getting out of control.
                          Most oligarchs have lost a lot of money in the last years, the ones richer than Pinchuk even their main assets.
                          Professor Motyl agrees with Pinchuk:
                          https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-pol...ea-donbas.html

                          Shariy et al thinks that Pinchuk's remarks were basically fed to him by Poro, so that the latter didn't have to say it himself. BTW, the "concessions" regarding the Donbass are the same ones stipulated by Minsk II that Kiev is supposed to adhere to, so it's all kinda weird how it's being portrayed, to be honest. Lends weight to the impression that Kiev never really bothered with Minsk II though, and in turn makes the ever-present calls (regardless of the situation on the ground) for Russia to adhere to the same documents a bit hypocritical. But we all knew the state of that particular echo chamber.

                          The Crimea issue as highlighted by Pinchuk is another story, but there aren't any actual new concessions there either, it's just about acknowledging the fact that the Ukraine can't fight Russia over Crimea as things are standing, so they should not waste energy and resources on that futile struggle at this stage as they're badly needed elsewhere. Nowhere does he argue that Ukraine should just give up on their general standpoints and prospects though, it's just a little bit of realism for a change.

                          In other news, three Ukrainian soldiers defected to Russia in November:
                          http://censor.net.ua/news/414945/skr...ejal_v_rossiyu
                          http://gordonua.com/news/war/v-rosto...mi-161687.html

                          And last week an Ukrainian border guard froze to death in the Odessa region:
                          https://www.facebook.com/bojcenko/po...90617317660938

                          And finally, some more input on the alleged "Fancy Bear" hacks of the Ukrainian artillery app:
                          https://medium.com/@jeffreycarr/the-...02d#.g4lj4u8pn

                          So now it's apparently CrowdStrike against the Ukrainians themselves (who said it's all crap talk or something to that effect), and some other cybersec guys.
                          Last edited by moosefoot; 09-01-2017, 09:14 AM.

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                          • Fackelzug in Kiew 1/01/2017: "Juden - get' "(Jews - go away):


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                            • Originally posted by moosefoot View Post

                              Professor Motyl agrees with Pinchuk:
                              https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-pol...ea-donbas.html
                              Motyl has been a proponent of abandoning Donbass for a long time.
                              http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/b...donbas-enclave
                              http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/b...%E2%80%94again

                              I've always found that funny considering the guy is very obviously straight-up obsessed with hating on Russia and Putin.

                              Comment


                              • Savchenko today published a list of jailed and missing people in Ukraine, something which the SBU apparently wasn't very happy about.

                                https://www.facebook.com/Savchenko.N...46056628824969

                                Apart from POWs on both sides, there are 102 political prisoners/prisoners of conscience in Ukraine according to the statistics she got hold of. Many have been locked up for years without explanation, trial or anything. She notes that this is more than twice as many as people commonly regarded as political prisoners in Russia, which has more than three times the population and is allegedly a totalitarian dictatorship at that. Heheh.

                                This comes after she negotiated prisoner exchanges on her own a while ago.

                                Also, more Russian strategic deception:

                                Friendly democracy champions with European values blew up a Holocaust memorial in Lvov:
                                http://korrespondent.net/city/lvov/3...e-peniatskoi#6

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