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  • Originally posted by Lapzwans View Post

    No, I'll take secular mass murderers over religious mass murderers any day. Of course ISIS is more evil than an Assad, Saddam or Khadaffi. But Iran (forget about Assad) is definitely a bigger threat to Israel now. Ofcourse they'll defend themselves at all costs against them, who wouldn't in their place? What imaginary threats are you talking about? And blowing up the entire world? Talking about imagining things...
    So lets shoot down planes that are bombing religious mass murderers, because imaginary Iranian nuclear bombs are more important than real actual armed jihadists waging religious war on Israel's borders.

    Makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying.

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    • Originally posted by kiri View Post

      So lets shoot down planes that are bombing religious mass murderers, because imaginary Iranian nuclear bombs are more important than real actual armed jihadists waging religious war on Israel's borders.

      Makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying.


      He wasn't shot down because he was bombing ISIS, but because he entered Israeli airspace.
      If you think getting the bomb isn't the ultimate Iranian goal, you're being naive, to say the least. But Israel did bomb real actual armed semi-jihadists on their borders. And you pro-boys are making a problem out of it. Or shiite jihadists don't count?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Lapzwans View Post
        He wasn't shot down because he was bombing ISIS, but because he entered Israeli airspace.
        So Israeli jets never enter Syrian airspace? Or is the airspace above Syria and Israel a one-way highway only (in favor of Israel)?
        Also, keywords: shot down while bombing ISIS.

        Originally posted by Lapzwans View Post
        If you think getting the bomb isn't the ultimate Iranian goal, you're being naive, to say the least.
        So do you think shooting down a Syrian jet will make the creation of the Iranian nuclear bomb quicker or slower?

        Originally posted by Lapzwans View Post
        But Israel did bomb real actual armed semi-jihadists on their borders. And you pro-boys are making a problem out of it. Or shiite jihadists don't count?
        Now you're trying to change the topic.

        Comment


        • everytime it comes to "...but the Iranians..." like they were a relevant force or have a real interest in destroying Israel... I keep thinking the only reason was to kick a major oil supplier out to rise the oil price a little bit so the rest of the oil industry/states can benefit.

          Anyway from a military standpoint, I see Patiots or F-16s/18s going up and catching their targets most of the times. I see S-400/300/MiG-29/Su-30/35 staying silent or grounded and the rest, composed of S-200, S-125, Buk, Kub, Patsir, etc finding a target after scores of missiles missed. ...that's a big technology gap.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by north44 View Post
            Anyway from a military standpoint, I see Patiots or F-16s/18s going up and catching their targets most of the times. I see S-400/300/MiG-29/Su-30/35 staying silent or grounded and the rest, composed of S-200, S-125, Buk, Kub, Patsir, etc finding a target after scores of missiles missed. ...that's a big technology gap.
            Less technology gap, more different MOs with Israel being more aggressive than the others.

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            • Originally posted by Mitleser1987 View Post

              Less technology gap, more different MOs with Israel being more aggressive than the others.

              not really. tens of Syrian SAMs went up in the air. A single jet came down so far.

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              • Originally posted by north44 View Post
                not really. tens of Syrian SAMs went up in the air. A single jet came down so far.
                Yes, really.
                Israel is using the airspace of third parties/dominated by friendly forces to strike targets in a country whose AD is weakened by civil war.

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                • Supposedly 2. And they have only old AAdefences - Russia is determined to avoid any clash with Israel (and so is Assad for that matter). Nothing newer than S200 has been available but of course Russian improvements of radar systems have helped. Israel eventually lost planes when they got too arrogant and overlooked certain Iranian additions to AA defence.

                  SyAF may not have been in the best condition in 2011 and then after a brutal war effort. But Russia has helped a lot, transferred some Su 24 planes. They have upgraded a lot of systems and used their stocks of spares for the 'junk', deployed specialists who have stripped the old planes into atoms and rebuilt them (this brought the ca. 10 Su 22s from Iran back in service) As for SyAD that was a primary rat target from the start, obviously a strategy of the foreign backers to get rid of all of the air defence they could.

                  Russia has made huge efforts to rebuild the air defence, successfully, but without adding any long range SAMs (deferring to Israel's wish). Seems one reason they are considering S300 to Syria at long last is that it is becoming too difficult to maintain and supply S200.

                  Comment


                  • I guess IS underlined what this is about by their attacks in Sweida, killing ca. 50 civilians . Ca. 80 wounded. Attackers taken out after street fight.

                    Israeli officials have stated that they would prefer an IS takeover of Syria to Assad staying in power..

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by coyotl View Post

                      Israeli officials have stated that they would prefer an IS takeover of Syria to Assad staying in power..

                      Do you have any links to That statement..?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mitleser1987 View Post

                        Yes, really.
                        Israel is using the airspace of third parties/dominated by friendly forces to strike targets in a country whose AD is weakened by civil war.
                        The result does not change. The technological gap is evident. Dozens of SAMs were fired by the Syrians with a sole aircraft shot down. Their interceptors (MiG-29s) are not even able or worse do not even dare to scramble... and those jets are supposed to carry the self claimed "state-of-the-art" R-77!
                        On the other side as soon as an intruder comes in ("in" being Israel, Turkey or even Syrian airspace proper, but under "US self proclaimed mandate), it is downed within very few minutes if not seconds. That's a fact.

                        When Israel misses its target like it happened a couple of weeks ago, it becomes news. When the Syrians hit something than it becomes news.
                        Last edited by north44; 25-07-2018, 04:44 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by coyotl View Post
                          Russia has made huge efforts to rebuild the air defence, successfully, but without adding any long range SAMs (deferring to Israel's wish). Seems one reason they are considering S300 to Syria at long last is that it is becoming too difficult to maintain and supply S200.
                          That effort was quite unsuccessful. Syrian air space is continuously raided by intruders, call them US, Arab allies, Turkey, Israel even Iraq.
                          You see the gap by analysing how upgradable Western equipment is compared to the difficulty in upgrading Soviet/Russian stuff. Most of the USAF F-16/15 are old, from the Eighties. The Patriot system is not that younger than the S-200. But they were conceived since the beginning with the future in mind.
                          ...and the results... What an amazing difference!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Scarren View Post


                            Do you have any links to That statement..?
                            https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.time...-in-syria/amp/

                            It seems the genocide did'nt botherd them that much, we haven't seem Hamas doing that. Daesh is a class of it's own, modern day einzatstruppen.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by north44 View Post
                              everytime it comes to "...but the Iranians..." like they were a relevant force or have a real interest in destroying Israel... I keep thinking the only reason was to kick a major oil supplier out to rise the oil price a little bit so the rest of the oil industry/states can benefit.

                              Anyway from a military standpoint, I see Patiots or F-16s/18s going up and catching their targets most of the times. I see S-400/300/MiG-29/Su-30/35 staying silent or grounded and the rest, composed of S-200, S-125, Buk, Kub, Patsir, etc finding a target after scores of missiles missed. ...that's a big technology gap.
                              And the Luftwaffe destroyed thousands of Soviet planes on the ground in the opening days of the invasion.. yet what does that say about the actual tech difference between German and Soviet aircraft?

                              Probably no more than destroying a Pantsir-S1 with its radar off and its crew having a smoke outside while leaving the vehicle wide out in the open, or ambushing a Su-22 with Patriot missiles while it was out bombing rebels.

                              The Yanks were all gun-ho about the superiority of the M1 Abrams after the 2003 Iraqi invasion against old Soviet junk and inferior equipment made in accordance with an inferior philosophy.
                              And while the M1 Abrams is indeed a very nice tank - when the Iraqis and Saudis tried to use it against enemies that knew what they were doing, and armed with modern AT missiles - those tanks didn't fare so well. Neither did the Bradleys, MRAPs or those other vehicles.
                              Conversely, when the Russians brought the T-90 into Syria and employed it against the rebels - the tank fared as well as the M1 Abrams did in 2003 Iraq; given that it was used with the right tactics and organization.

                              Originally posted by north44 View Post

                              That effort was quite unsuccessful. Syrian air space is continuously raided by intruders, call them US, Arab allies, Turkey, Israel even Iraq.
                              A lack of political will as much as anything else.
                              Were the Russians serious about sealing off Syrian air space and destroying any and all violators then the results would be rather different; but then we might end up in WW3.

                              You see the gap by analysing how upgradable Western equipment is compared to the difficulty in upgrading Soviet/Russian stuff. Most of the USAF F-16/15 are old, from the Eighties. The Patriot system is not that younger than the S-200. But they were conceived since the beginning with the future in mind.
                              ...and the results... What an amazing difference!
                              Hardly. First of all the Patriots are much newer than the S-200 which is a relic. They are also maintained and supported better, and the current iteration that the Israelis have is the latest.

                              Secondly, what results - the Patriots have been used in combat but have been crap against ballistic misisles, and haven't been employed against any modern aircraft; the Su-22 is hardly one with no modern EW defences and early warning sensors.

                              Thirdly, the Soviet stuff is just as upgradable. The S-400 is the result of iterative improvements from the original S-300P. The Su-35 is an evolution of the original Su-27. The T-90 is a newly-built modern T-72B, which itself came about from the T-72A back in the 70s. And all this equipment is top of the line as of today.

                              Originally posted by north44 View Post
                              When Israel misses its target like it happened a couple of weeks ago, it becomes news. When the Syrians hit something than it becomes news.
                              Why not hypothesise instead on what would happen if an Israeli aircraft flies into Russian airspace and the Russians are waiting for it?
                              The history of shot-down NATO aircraft over Soviet airspace in the Cold War should provide a clue.

                              You're comparing a broke down 3rd world country ravaged by years of civil war and with outdated equipment even before that - to a modern one with its own successful defence industry, and billions of dollars each year and the pick of the latest technology owing to its superpower sponsor.
                              Last edited by flamming_python; 25-07-2018, 07:13 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jumper View Post

                                https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.time...-in-syria/amp/

                                It seems the genocide did'nt botherd them that much, we haven't seem Hamas doing that. Daesh is a class of it's own, modern day einzatstruppen.
                                WRONG.

                                Read your link again.

                                Hint: Ya-Alon referenced Iran, not Syria.

                                Israel's position has always been the continuation of the current Regine, without terrorist organizations.

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