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US Mulls Moving Forces from Germany to Poland

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  • #16
    Originally posted by heiliger_geist View Post
    looks like tusk,.. poland to be more precise, is pretty jittery nowadays and absolutely not amused, especially with the austrian chancellor and the mega flirt with putin.

    Its also not exactly stable atm. moving troops could be read by Kaczynski as approval for his wannabe regime change attempts. It could be very quickly very politicaly inconvinient.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ak16 View Post


      I also agree. However, how does US influence and military supremacy on EU soil benefit the Europeans? I can think of just one (lower defence costs), but even that is under question at the moment....

      It benefits us in the way that we don't have to spend even more money on our totally ineffective defenses (cost wise).

      And especially Germany has not to care about evil stuff like nukes... pfui pfui


      But we like to live comfortably under the "dirty umbrella" and feel good.


      Our armed forces are nothing more than an expedition corps at the moment.

      Money is mostly spent on salaries and running costs of foreign interventions.


      It was 21 billion €s since 1992. While this is not much, our refugee adventure costs us 30 billion / year or even more, the armed forces are the step child in receiving funds.

      Notwithstanding that money alone would solve nothing. A lot has to be reorganised and strucutred differntly aswell as a real plan as to waht capacities woudl be needed has to be set up.

      Then funding could begin, otherwise it would just drain away unnoticed.


      We Europeans can only solve this mess by putting up large joint programmes giving us a sizeable amount of weapon systems at affordable prices.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by ak16 View Post

        I agree......but is it possible that the world would be better place if the ability of the US to "power project" into the further reaches of the world would be curbed just a little? After all, said "power projection" is to no ones benefit but their own.....

        +

        I also agree. However, how does US influence and military supremacy on EU soil benefit the Europeans? I can think of just one (lower defence costs), but even that is under question at the moment....
        Besides saving costs on defence it doesn't give Europe any benefits which is why this idea is stupid from an American perspective. Their economy has thrived on a century of the US being involved every where which is what makes this notion of isolationism so monumentally stupid. If they go isolationist they lose a lot of their (diplomatic) leverage and the incentive for foreign governments to buy American products over those of their competitors.

        If Trump pulls American forces out of Germany he'll either force the Europeans to spend more themselves which they may or may not decide to do (in case of Germany itself pretty much zero). Either way they'll lose a lot of influence because the factor of reliance will no longer be there to push people towards positions that are favorable to American interests. Choosing to give up a lot of influence in the largest most wealthy major European country in exchange for more leverage over Poland is not something a good businessman would do. Someone who's gone bankrupt several times on the other hand ...
        Last edited by Mike1976; 11-07-2018, 05:19 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by picanha View Post

          It benefits us in the way that we don't have to spend even more money on our totally ineffective defenses (cost wise).

          And especially Germany has not to care about evil stuff like nukes... pfui pfui


          But we like to live comfortably under the "dirty umbrella" and feel good.


          Our armed forces are nothing more than an expedition corps at the moment.

          Money is mostly spent on salaries and running costs of foreign interventions.


          It was 21 billion €s since 1992. While this is not much, our refugee adventure costs us 30 billion / year or even more, the armed forces are the step child in receiving funds.

          Notwithstanding that money alone would solve nothing. A lot has to be reorganised and strucutred differntly aswell as a real plan as to waht capacities woudl be needed has to be set up.

          Then funding could begin, otherwise it would just drain away unnoticed.


          We Europeans can only solve this mess by putting up large joint programmes giving us a sizeable amount of weapon systems at affordable prices.

          You are speaking about Germany right ?
          Cause i don't recognize France nor UK in your rant ....

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mike1976 View Post

            Besides saving costs on defence it doesn't give Europe any benefits which is why this idea is stupid from an American perspective. Their economy has thrived on a century of the US being involved every where which is what makes this notion of isolationism so monumentally stupid. If they go isolationist they lose a lot of their (diplomatic) leverage and the incentive for foreign governments to buy American products over those of their competitors.

            If Trump pulls American forces out of Germany he'll either force the Europeans to spend more themselves which they may or may not decide to do (in case of Germany itself pretty much zero). Either way they'll lose a lot of influence because the factor of reliance will no longer be there to push people towards positions that are favorable to American interests. Choosing to give up a lot of influence in the largest most wealthy major European country in exchange for more leverage over Poland is not something a good businessman would do. Someone who's gone bankrupt several times on the other hand ...

            Not to mention US guarantees are seen as part of the post war peace deal.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

              You are speaking about Germany right ?
              Cause i don't recognize France nor UK in your rant ....
              France and the UK have made considerable budget cuts too though (even if their ideas are less utopian than those of Germany), with politicians aiming for short term electoral gain not realizing or not caring that breaking down the armed forces is achieved within a few months, but building them back up will take a decade or more.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mike1976 View Post

                France and the UK have made considerable budget cuts too though (even if their ideas are less utopian than those of Germany), with politicians aiming for short term electoral gain not realizing or not caring that breaking down the armed forces is achieved within a few months, but building them back up will take a decade or more.
                Yes we had considerable budget cuts. That's called shares of peace. However, given the interventions abroad and at home, our budget is supposed to rise until 2020-2021
                We already had an increase between 2017 and 2018 (from 1.77% to 1.82% of the GDP)
                Not counting increase in Gendarmerie (that is still a military organization even if under the control of the Interior Ministry)
                And increase also in Police
                As well as in our strategic forces

                Cannot talk about UK but they don't seem too bad (even if not everything is rosy) with 2 carriers to be launched as well as several T45 and Astute SSN

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

                  You are speaking about Germany right ?
                  Cause i don't recognize France nor UK in your rant ....

                  Mostly yes. I would kick Germany out of NATO

                  We can then build up a not so dangerous and non-intimidating defence concept without nukes and all the evil things.




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                  • #24
                    I just don't understand that man. Make up your bloody mind, Donald. Either Russia is a threat to NATO or it isn't. If it isn't, you have no business whining. It doesn't make any bloody sense.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Strategically, concerning Russia, there is no need to move the bases further east. Especially not the airfields and logistic/medical installations.

                      To the contrary the US is building a large Medical facility in Weilerbach/Rhineland-Palatinate, with finacial assitance from Germany.

                      https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de...icle_id=397090



                      The new EU initiative for better military road infrastructure should enable large troop movements anyway. So it is better to have marshalling areas and all other vital installations further west.


                      https://ec.europa.eu/transport/theme...ry-mobility_en


                      Also the military "Schengen" which effectively is a huge step towards a defence union. So all EU and allied troops can move freely inside the EU.


                      https://euobserver.com/institutional/141477

                      https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/20...-russia-threat

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