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  • Romania is celebrating the National Day.

    The military parade organized on this day serves as a good occasion to see any new developments.

    Link to a video of the parade: https://www.privesc.eu/arhiva/79166

    Things to see:

    1.
    You can see three Piranha V's at 53 minutes and 20 seconds into the video. Now it's not really clear if these are in the configuration to be delivered to Romania, or if they were rushed by GDELS specifically for the parade (if so, can anyone recognize the configuration?). This will be clear in the next few months (first 5 vehicles are supposed to arrive in December). Contract are sign and the legal stages have been met, so we will see the 227 Piranha V enter service.

    Links to three screen grabs that I made (so not to violate the forum's rules).
    https://imgur.com/aKCbQ8D
    https://imgur.com/otRBn0v
    https://imgur.com/MYfzdZH

    2.
    Romanian forces are getting a new field uniform.

    3.
    We see more and more small changes that impact the ability of the forces to do their job properly. For example, we see small rovers for special forces, quad bikes for regular forces, and we see logistics transport trailers for heavy vehicles. Nothing major, but these things matter and it does show a next step in the mentality of equipping the forces.

    4.
    Polish troops joined the parade with their Patria APC. These are the forces from the Polish company in Romania. In summer they brought the BMP-1 (probably because of the large scale exercise that involved a lot of armor forces), now we see Patria's.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BogT View Post
      Romania is celebrating the National Day.

      The military parade organized on this day serves as a good occasion to see any new developments.

      Link to a video of the parade: https://www.privesc.eu/arhiva/79166

      Things to see:

      1.
      You can see three Piranha V's at 53 minutes and 20 seconds into the video. Now it's not really clear if these are in the configuration to be delivered to Romania, or if they were rushed by GDELS specifically for the parade (if so, can anyone recognize the configuration?). This will be clear in the next few months (first 5 vehicles are supposed to arrive in December). Contract are sign and the legal stages have been met, so we will see the 227 Piranha V enter service.
      Are M2 .50 cal machine guns currently in Romanian service or intended for use on the LAV's? The ones in the remote weapon stations look more like mock ups rather than live guns which lines up with what you mentioned about being rushed in and dressed up for the parade.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by gafkiwi View Post

        Are M2 .50 cal machine guns currently in Romanian service or intended for use on the LAV's? The ones in the remote weapon stations look more like mock ups rather than live guns which lines up with what you mentioned about being rushed in and dressed up for the parade.
        Yes, Romania uses M2 .50 cal machine guns. Notably they use them on the Piranha IIIC.

        At this point I'm curious if the Piranha V will come with a heavy turret (30mm gun + Spike ATM), if yes then what will be the turret in question. And will it be the same for the Agilis project (to come out in 2019) or are we going to see a new turret for the Agilis. Last, we could see an APC configuration for the Piranha V for now, with the same turret as the Agilis being installed later for an IFV configuration.

        Comment


        • It's official, today, 12 Jan. 2018, after a slight delay due to negotiations, Romania signed the contract with General Dynamics Land Systems for the Piranha V.

          https://translate.google.fr/translat...ranha-v-859090

          The total cost of the program is about 895 million euros, for 227 Piranha V. The first 36 will arrive this year, from which 30 will be build in Switzerland and 6 by Uzina Mecanica Bucureşti (UMB). A number of 197 from the 227 total will be build by UMB. The contract being signed means that there's no turning back. All it remains is to see more details about the configuration.
          This is an excellent news in the grand scheme for the Romanian Armed Forces.
          Last edited by BogT; 12-01-2018, 05:50 PM.

          Comment


          • And related to the parade... I wrote here: http://themess.net/forum/military-di...324#post311324

            Those Piranha V were for Danmark, their configuration, brought in by GDLS as a show to the public.

            Comment


            • The GDELS announcement: https://www.gdels.com/pr.php?news=108

              Today, General Dynamics European Land Systems signed a contract to deliver up to 227 PIRANHA 5 wheeled armored vehicles in six different configurations to the Romanian Armed Forces. The contract has a total value exceeding $1 billion.
              Since there will be 6 configurations it means that complete battalions around P5 are desired.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BogT View Post
                - the Patriot sale is approved by US and the MoD will send the paperwork for final approval to the Romanian parliament in the next two weeks. "We will spend USD 764 million on the first Patriot system by year-end.”
                Could you tell me more details about the Romanian contract? How much money will you spend in total for how many Patriot batteries? The Americans wanted to charge Poland £10.5bn, so the Polish government stated such a price is unacceptable.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Musashi View Post
                  Could you tell me more details about the Romanian contract? How much money will you spend in total for how many Patriot batteries? The Americans wanted to charge Poland £10.5bn, so the Polish government stated such a price is unacceptable.
                  See this post and the link within: http://themess.net/forum/military-di...827#post280827

                  But, basically it's $3.9bilion (or less) for 7 batteries:

                  Seven (7) AN/MPQ-65 Radar Sets
                  Seven (7) AN/MSQ-132 Engagement Control Stations
                  Thirteen (13) Antenna Mast Groups
                  Twenty-eight (28) M903 Launching Stations
                  Fifty-six (56) Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced Missile Tactical Ballistic Missile (GEM-T) Missiles
                  One hundred sixty-eight (168) Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) Missile Segment Enhancement (MSE) Missiles
                  Seven (7) Electrical Power Plants (EPP) III

                  I expect the price per subsequent battery to drop after the initial $764 million (which should include other costs). Unless they changed the terms without making a big fuss about and failed to inform the Romanian public (why US sources are more reliable).

                  In the case of Poland, I think it was clear that due to Poland's request, US got a bit ticked off and asked for an unreasonable price.

                  Comment


                  • So a Patriot Battery has 4 launchers as I presumed earlier and one radar per battery. I guess you can add more launchers to it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by picanha View Post
                      So a Patriot Battery has 4 launchers as I presumed earlier and one radar per battery. I guess you can add more launchers to it.
                      Yes, but I suspect it's more advantageous to connect other missiles (medium to short range; I think that's the plan for Ro. Forces). As you mentioned at some point, the radar defines the battery.

                      I don't know exactly how the Antenna Masts are used, but I assume their number (and distribution) allows for a integrated air defense network. I think this will be a first for Ro. Forces.

                      Considering where we are, the type of threat and what we need to defend, the Patriot's will close a strategic level hole in the region.

                      That and the existing+future F-16s for air policing when we can still talk, plus future planed HIMARS that can offer some strike-back capabilities if Crimea is used as a launching platform (so a deterrent basically; a few standoff missiles for the F-16 should be purchased though). After that we can worry about Naval capabilities and the broader Land Forces equipment. In broad-strokes, that's how the new toys are being purchased.

                      Overall I'm happy with the purchase schedule (more realistic than Poland; but then again we don't have the same arch-plan as Poland), but I'm still very afraid with the internal political games that may spill over into the defense procurement area. Short of that, things would look good (not perfect, but good) and would fix a few decades of neglect.

                      Comment


                      • I searched for the law approving the Patriot purchase, see link (via Google translate): https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...-text=&act=url

                        LAW no. 222 of November 27, 2017 for the "ground-based airborne defense capability" related to the Essential Endowment Program "Halo-Air-to-Air Missile System (HSAM)"

                        The Romanian Parliament adopts this law.

                        Article 1

                        (1) Approving the implementation of "Airborne Ground Defense Capability" related to the Essential Endowment Program "High-Speed ​​Airborne Missile Systems (HSAM)", by:
                        a) the assignment by the Government of Romania to the Government of the United States of Letter of Offer and Acceptance - LOA specific to the Foreign Military Sales - FMS Program for the purchase of 7 (seven) PATRIOT ground-to-air missile systems 3+, respectively major equipment, means of transport, materials, parts, maintenance equipment, necessary ammunition, initial logistic support package and training service, cryptographic and special equipment;

                        b) ensuring through the Ministry of National Defense budget the funds necessary to carry out the acquisitions referred to in a), as well as those necessary for the full implementation of the objectives under national responsibility.
                        (2) The first high-impact rocket-propelled (HSAM) missile system from those purchased in accordance with paragraph (1) lit. (a) shall be contracted until 31 December 2017 in the configuration of the first LOA State Contract and at the price representing the ROL equivalent of USD 910.10 million, including VAT, of the estimated total value of approximately USD 4.64 billion , including VAT.

                        (3) The Ministry of National Defense manages the foreign currency amounts related to the acquisitions provided for in paragraph (1) lit. a) through an analytical account opened in his name, within the currency account of the Ministry of Public Finance opened with the National Bank of Romania. The balance of that account, recorded at the end of each financial year, shall be carried forward to the following year and used for the purpose of financing the costs of achieving the objective referred to in paragraph (1).

                        (4) By way of derogation from the provisions of art. 282 par. (1) , art. 285 , 289 and 290 of Law no. 227/2015 regarding the Fiscal Code , as subsequently amended and supplemented, the Ministry of National Defense is authorized to pay VAT on the basis of the LOA contract until the 25th of the month following that in which the external payment for each LOA contract.
                        Article 2 and the rest are related legal technicalities (see full link for details).

                        With a VAT of 19%, the $3.9 billion become the listed $4.64 billion. I think is a legal thing, but I never really understand why the state pays VAT to itself on weapon deals (although 1% of that goes to EU, I guess).


                        So we have a confirmation of the $3.9 billion total cost and the 7 batteries that was listed in the US Arms Sales Notification.

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