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  • Originally posted by Mokordo View Post
    In Spanish, but you can use google translator or similar: https://www.elmundo.es/internacional...3188b46af.html


    If google translate can be trusted, then the following paragraph from the article you posted: "Raimundo Santamarta , owner and president of Pharma, denounced in September of last year the "occupation without reason or motives of any nature with intent to expropriate and transfer ownership to third parties known by the governorship of the state of Zulia. It has stopped producing."
    seems to suggest that the pharmaceutical factory has not been working since last September. Considering the shortage of medicine gripping Venezuela, taking control of this asset might be a net positive development for the country if the new owners can manage to get production of much-needed medicine ramped up.


    Comment


    • Originally posted by HisRoyalHighness View Post
      I'm Ukrainian-Russian and my family was persecuted by the communists for their religious beliefs.

      So there's a lot more than cold war propaganda brainwashing which I suspect you are the victim of.


      Guess what? All those nations may have socialism like programs, but at their core of their society they are capitalistic meaning privately owned businesses, privately owned property, and the individual benefiting from the fruit of THEIR OWN labor.

      Not under economic, military, and political sanctions.

      Nice try.
      What kind of religious beliefs? In the late USSR no one really bothered Orthodox Christians since everyone in my family is orthodox and were baptised with no particular issues. I would understand it if your family were preaching for Jehova's Witnesses....but honestly, screw the Jehova's Witnesses

      Another misconception: Socialism does not proscribe neither private property (there is a distinction b/w personal property and means of production, where the former is allowed, while the management of the latter depends on the flavour of Socialism one prefers), profit (some models of Socialism prescribe dividing profits amongst workers, while others state that in truly developed Socialism there is no need for profits), nor currency (only Communism does not require currency): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_economics

      But yes, you are mostly correct, the countries I mentioned are mostly Capitalistic countries with elements of Socialism. Still, such systems are orders of magnitudes better than a manifestation of a "dog-eat-dog" laissez-faire Capitalism. So maybe.....just maybe....not everything in Socialism is abhorrent.
      Last edited by ak16; 09-02-2019, 11:13 AM.

      Comment


      • The Hugo Chavez style socialism essentially gave the government free hand to expropriate businesses and private property at will. One time Hugo Chavez even went on his weekly TV show from Caracas and started pointing at buildings in the vicinity giving orders to expropriate this one and that one, essentially seizing private property at will. This greatly contributed to the destruction of many industries across the country. The maduro government is just a continuation of that nonsense. At this point people essentially show up to government events in return of a bag of food.

        Failed system in failed country. Pressure needs to continue until the military turns against Maduro and the government changes. Plain and simple.

        To AK16, yes I'd much rather see intervention than watch my people slowly starve.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ak16 View Post
          I am rather thankful that I do not live there and can understand why so many US expats are in Canada/Australia.
          That's nice. And yet, more people wish they could immigrate to the US than to any other country on earth. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...nt-to-move-to/
          https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...g-america.aspx

          How about them apples. The reality is, for all the foreigners' constant bitching and moaning about the US, the US, historically, has been the most successful example of millions of people achieving upward mobility and success because of the principals of capitalism and value our society places on risk taking, entrepreneurship, and achieving independent success.

          Originally posted by ak16
          Communism has never been a failure because it has never existed...
          Oh for crying out loud. How many times have the leaders of wannabe communist countries said that all will be gravy when society finally achieves true communism? Herpidy derp. This shit is by far the most common "talking point" you hear from their propaganda. Hell you're apparently from the former USSR so you should know better. Talk about brainwashing.

          Face it, every "attempt" to "achieve" communism has ended in a complete fucking failure and disaster. By and large countries that have embraced true economic socialism haven't fared much better (and no, tiny Scandinavia isn't a good example, as the countries still largely embrace capitalist principals as it concerns their economic system - e.g. private financial markets, private ownership, etc).

          Socialism and communism as they relate to economic ideas are both completely failed ideologies that have proven they can never work. Failing to acknowledge that is just idiocy and delusion at this point considering the wealth of history that has proven this to be the case.
          Last edited by Jonathan; 09-02-2019, 12:25 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ak16 View Post

            Are you unaware of the fact that no state in human history has ever implemented communism?

            PS: Communism != socialism (shocking, I know)

            100 millions+ dead people beg to differ.

            Comment


            • ak16 Don´t trust google translator, I´ve checked it and in some paragraphs it says exactly the opposite, sorry.

              As example:

              Raimundo Santamarta , owner and president of Pharma, denounced in September of last year the "occupation without reason or motives of any nature with intent to expropriate and transfer ownership to third parties known by the governorship of the state of Zulia. It has stopped producing. "
              In Spanish:

              Raimundo Santamarta, propietario y presidente de Pharma, denunció en septiembre del año pasado la "ocupación sin razón ni motivos de ninguna naturaleza con intención de expropiación y transferencia de propiedad a terceros conocidos por parte de la gobernación del estado de Zulia. En 42 años jamás se ha parado de producir".
              So it´s not "It has stoppeed producing" is "In 42 years , has never sttoped producing(the factory)"...

              I will never recommend use google translator.

              The article, anyways, try to comunicate that the workers are unable to organize the production , and the visit is a completelly theatre with propaganda intentions, and the expropiation was unfair because the factory has never stopped or decreased the production with/under the private direction.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mokordo View Post
                ak16 So it´s not "It has stoppeed producing" is "In 42 years , has never sttoped producing(the factory)"...

                I will never recommend use google translator.

                The article, anyways, try to comunicate that the workers are unable to organize the production , and the visit is a completelly theatre with propaganda intentions, and the expropiation was unfair because the factory has never stopped or decreased the production with/under the private direction.

                My bad.....I blame google translate. I don't doubt for a second that the visit from Maduro is propaganda theatre, most news stories coming from that part of the world tend to be....the stakes are simply so high for both sides that neither one will avoid utilizing even the most brain-dead of propaganda tricks.

                If the pharmaceutical company did not cease production while under private ownership, something must have triggered the seizure because such actions tend to be risky to the overall economy and always have wider consequences. I am just wondering what issues the Venezuelan government had with the previous owners to make them take such drastic actions (was it funding of the opposition)?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jonathan View Post

                  Oh for crying out loud. How many times have the leaders of wannabe communist countries said that all will be gravy when society finally achieves true communism? Herpidy derp. This shit is by far the most common "talking point" you hear from their propaganda. Hell you're apparently from the former USSR so you should know better. Talk about brainwashing.

                  Face it, every "attempt" to "achieve" communism has ended in a complete fucking failure and disaster. By and large countries that have embraced true economic socialism haven't fared much better (and no, tiny Scandinavia isn't a good example, as the countries still largely embrace capitalist principals as it concerns their economic system - e.g. private financial markets, private ownership, etc).

                  Socialism and communism as they relate to economic ideas are both completely failed ideologies that have proven they can never work. Failing to acknowledge that is just idiocy and delusion at this point considering the wealth of history that has proven this to be the case.
                  Its true that socialism is on the retreat nearly everywhere and has been since the 60s. In much of the west what is left of the left has practically stopped making economic arguments entirely and has become obsessed with cultural and identity issues.

                  I see Venezuela as possibly revolutionary socialism's last real stand. Cuba will be in big trouble if Maduro's government collapses.

                  Communism doesn't work, but still no one seems particularly excited about the new neo-liberal hegemony. Socialism harnessed feelings of existential angst and dissatisfaction with the state of the world that are not going away. They are just going to take another form.

                  Comment


                  • https://www.reuters.com/article/us-v...source=twitter

                    Venezuela’s state-run oil company PDVSA is telling customers of its joint ventures to deposit oil sales proceeds in an account recently opened at Russia’s Gazprombank AO, according to sources and an internal document seen by Reuters on Saturday.

                    So perhaps Venezuela is also getting other help to circumvent the economic warfare.

                    Saudi supertanker Abqaiq is on the way to Venezuela, arriving Friday.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by coyotl View Post
                      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-v...source=twitter

                      Venezuela’s state-run oil company PDVSA is telling customers of its joint ventures to deposit oil sales proceeds in an account recently opened at Russia’s Gazprombank AO, according to sources and an internal document seen by Reuters on Saturday.

                      So perhaps Venezuela is also getting other help to circumvent the economic warfare.

                      Saudi supertanker Abqaiq is on the way to Venezuela, arriving Friday.

                      Yet another "according to top-secret sources and documents" news story. It almost seems like the pro-US side is manufacturing as many of these rumours/stories as possible, in the hope that some might stick and cause damage. Official Gazprombank statement is that Venezuela has had an account in Gazprombank for years due to mutual business, and no new accounts have been opened nor transferred to Gazprombank by PDVSA: http://tass.com/economy/1044015

                      Originally posted by Lord Helmet View Post
                      The Hugo Chavez style socialism essentially gave the government free hand to expropriate businesses and private property at will. One time Hugo Chavez even went on his weekly TV show from Caracas and started pointing at buildings in the vicinity giving orders to expropriate this one and that one, essentially seizing private property at will. This greatly contributed to the destruction of many industries across the country. The maduro government is just a continuation of that nonsense. At this point people essentially show up to government events in return of a bag of food.

                      Failed system in failed country. Pressure needs to continue until the military turns against Maduro and the government changes. Plain and simple.

                      To AK16, yes I'd much rather see intervention than watch my people slowly starve.
                      No offence, but Venezuela can no longer be considered as "your country". There is one country you actively pledged your loyalty to and have served the interests of.....and it isn't Venezuela. So let's dispense with faux patriotism and concern.

                      Originally posted by Jonathan View Post
                      That's nice. And yet, more people wish they could immigrate to the US than to any other country on earth. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...nt-to-move-to/
                      https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...g-america.aspx

                      How about them apples. The reality is, for all the foreigners' constant bitching and moaning about the US, the US, historically, has been the most successful example of millions of people achieving upward mobility and success because of the principals of capitalism and value our society places on risk taking, entrepreneurship, and achieving independent success.
                      No offence, but the quality of life in the US does not hold a handle to the quality of life in countries like Australia. The US has one thing going for them which allows them to attract immigrants: good PR. I would also suggest that the visa requirements into the US are more lax when compared to Australia (at least they used to be back in my day). Also, a country with a population of 350 million can more readily absorb the immigrant flow than a country with 25 million like Australia (where the permanent migrant quota is set to ~200k per year, and even that number is commonly regarded as too high due to poorly coping infrastructure and lack of immigrant integration).

                      Originally posted by Jonathan View Post
                      Oh for crying out loud. How many times have the leaders of wannabe communist countries said that all will be gravy when society finally achieves true communism? Herpidy derp. This shit is by far the most common "talking point" you hear from their propaganda. Hell you're apparently from the former USSR so you should know better. Talk about brainwashing.

                      Face it, every "attempt" to "achieve" communism has ended in a complete fucking failure and disaster. By and large countries that have embraced true economic socialism haven't fared much better (and no, tiny Scandinavia isn't a good example, as the countries still largely embrace capitalist principals as it concerns their economic system - e.g. private financial markets, private ownership, etc).

                      Socialism and communism as they relate to economic ideas are both completely failed ideologies that have proven they can never work. Failing to acknowledge that is just idiocy and delusion at this point considering the wealth of history that has proven this to be the case.
                      I have never stated that Communism is possible.....after all, to build a Utopia, one must first have a Utopian.....and unfortunately humans do not seem to qualify. The only successful implementation of Communism are those in works of fiction. However, the absent-minded "commie" name-calling of those who are technically not Communists by those who are not aware about the differences b/w the theories of Socialism and Communism tend to antagonize me. To put it simply, I am either allergic to ignorance or simply overly pedantic. Take a pick.

                      I would not be so dismissive of Socialism. There is a very good reason why the populace of poor and stratified countries has historically been driven to Socialism. Let me put it this way, Socialism and its many interpretations will never completely disappear, and I would argue that as long as the Gini index keeps rising in developed countries, it is only a matter of time before a resurgence of Socialism. All it takes is an economic crisis.......and we all know that "black-swan" events like Great Depression and the GFC are largely unavoidable. So if I were you, I would not be so certain......

                      Originally posted by Ivan le Fou View Post
                      100 millions+ dead people beg to differ.
                      Do you really imagine that Capitalism has no blood on its hands? Just open up a history book for the 17th-19th centuries and have a read....there's this thing called Colonialism, Slave trade, and the exploitation of the resources of non-European populaces. Hmm....something tells me that the amount of wars that have been initiated due to Capitalistic driving forces is not 0........

                      Originally posted by Vox
                      Its true that socialism is on the retreat nearly everywhere and has been since the 60s. In much of the west what is left of the left has practically stopped making economic arguments entirely and has become obsessed with cultural and identity issues.

                      I see Venezuela as possibly revolutionary socialism's last real stand. Cuba will be in big trouble if Maduro's government collapses.

                      Communism doesn't work, but still no one seems particularly excited about the new neo-liberal hegemony. Socialism harnessed feelings of existential angst and dissatisfaction with the state of the world that are not going away. They are just going to take another form.
                      I would argue that the popularity of Socialism waxes and wanes depending on the social inequality in a society. For example, one could argue that the "Yellow Jacket" movement is at least inspired by elements of Socialism and the disenfranchisement of the French populace by the French ruling class. As long as the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, and as long as during inevitable economic crises the "profits get privatized and the losses get nationalized", the spectre of Socialism will endure. True, the ideas and models of Socialism morph and adapt with the times.....but they will never disappear as long as human society remains stratified.

                      Last edited by ak16; 10-02-2019, 06:21 AM.

                      Comment


                      • So 'recently opened' is an outright lie from Reuters -not surprised. But it could be that these accounts now get new uses..

                        (btw did you really bother to argue the '100 million' figure.. I admire the energy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ak16 View Post
                          Do you really imagine that Capitalism has no blood on its hands? Just open up a history book for the 17th-19th centuries and have a read....there's this thing called Colonialism, Slave trade, and the exploitation of the resources of non-European populaces. Hmm....something tells me that the amount of wars that have been initiated due to Capitalistic driving forces is not 0........
                          Slavery? Gulags maybe?
                          Exploitation of the resources of non-European populaces? What the USSR basically did?
                          Mass starvation? Social, economic, religious, ethnic purges?

                          It's not a dick measuring contest, but 100mil+ in not even a century (especially the one supposed to be the most enlighten, modern and civilized), in the name of one single ideology, is a pretty big thing... imho.


                          So yeah, Communism has been tried. And it failed each and every time. *capitalism works though*

                          Comment


                          • According to historians the USSR was an atypical 'empire' in that it did not exploit its satellites but the other way round - it supported them to avoid unrest.

                            Are you saying the USSR exploited non- Europeans? How?

                            Also a figure like '100 mill' has been suggested for total victims of US wars, coups, proxy wars.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by coyotl View Post
                              So 'recently opened' is an outright lie from Reuters -not surprised. But it could be that these accounts now get new uses..

                              (btw did you really bother to argue the '100 million' figure.. I admire the energy
                              As if 10 millions less or more would make a difference.

                              When you are arguing about that kind of proportions (tens of millions that is), the point is pretty much made anyway.

                              As for the number of victims caused by US wars, here is the big difference: war. The victims of communism were not victims of war (well, the Poles who died at Katyn were, just to cite one famous case).

                              Comment


                              • You set that dumb figure.

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