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  • Polish Armed Forces

    I hope we will rebuild the thread on The Mess.

    Last edited by digrar; 25-04-2015, 04:37 PM. Reason: Hotlinked facebook image. Not made clear if poster owned the rights to the picture as per site rules.

  • #2
    http://investor.raytheon.com/mobile....d=1&id=2036220

    TEWKSBURY, Mass., April 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) announced today it has been awarded a contract worth over $2.0 billion to deliver the combat-proven Patriot Air and Missile Defense System to an undisclosed international customer. The contract, awarded on April 2, 2015 and booked in the second quarter as a direct commercial sale, includes fully digitized new-production Patriot fire units with the latest technology for improved threat detection, identification and engagement. The contract also includes a full training package and support equipment.
    "In the past five months Qatar, Korea and now this international partner have all chosen Raytheon's Global Patriot solution because they have confidence in the world's most advanced air and missile defense system," said Daniel J. Crowley, president of Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems. "Including this most recent contract, Raytheon has booked more than $5 billion in international Patriot orders since late December 2014."
    Guess who is "undisclosed international customer"...

    Comment


    • #3
      Saudi Arabia ,on other hand "rumint" is saying "Airbus Helicopters" was selected as sole member for the practical test of the helicopter tender.
      Last edited by Tantalwz88; 21-04-2015, 02:40 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I was hoping for geting Aster-30 their offer looked better tech transfer wise.

        Would not supprise me about Airbus there were talks for a while that they will get the deal for political reasons.
        Last edited by Asheren; 21-04-2015, 05:18 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Asheren View Post
          I was hoping for geting Aster-30 their offer looked better tech transfer wise.
          Both offers were bad TBH. Raytheon offered poor tech transfer and they don't have proper radar covering 360 degrees around launcher position. SAMP/T on the other hand has rather poor radar (it covers 360 degree but its range is just 50-70km so wer would have integrate our own construction) and very limited anti-balistic capabilities.

          We should have deleyd the final decision, buy short-range systems instead and focus on mid-range again in the future - after necessary development Patriot/SAMP-T/MEADS is completed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by hastati View Post

            Both offers were bad TBH. Raytheon offered poor tech transfer and they don't have proper radar covering 360 degrees around launcher position. SAMP/T on the other hand has rather poor radar (it covers 360 degree but its range is just 50-70km so wer would have integrate our own construction) and very limited anti-balistic capabilities.

            We should have deleyd the final decision, buy short-range systems instead and focus on mid-range again in the future - after necessary development Patriot/SAMP-T/MEADS is completed.

            SAMP/T's radar (Arabel) is able to track target at a distance of 120km...
            (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/actualite...s/samp-t-mamba)

            Other news:

            Poland to acquire 50 to 70 H725 Caracal helicopters.
            http://lemamouth.blogspot.fr/2015/04...s-caracal.html
            http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...rs-470639.html

            The contract would be worth €2.5Bn.

            Comment


            • #7
              If i remember correctly 50-70 km is effective range for detecting and tracking balistic missiles, not radar maximum range.

              About Caracals: final decision is 50, not 70 helicopters. Smaller number will allow us to buy more attack helicopters in next few years.

              Comment


              • #8
                Patriot is officialy in via http://mon.gov.pl/aktualnosci/artyku...iedzyrzadowej/

                -2 batteries 3 years from signing the deal
                -8 batteries altogether

                Comment


                • #9
                  Warsaw details reasons behind H225M selection
                  By: Bartosz Glowacki

                  Poland has offered more detail on the reasoning behind its decision to select the Airbus Helicopters H225M Caracal for a reduced 50-unit order across all three branches of its armed forces.
                  Article continued @ Flightglobal

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cahiri0 View Post
                    There is a reason why Kruk is fast tracked, it will most likely be off the shelf solution. There will be no time to integrate locally made tech, evaluate and test it, certificate it etc.
                    And AW would most likely transfer "tech" mainly to Świdnik, this shouldn't even count as tech transfer, it's their own plant. Controlled and owned by AW, this would be plant modernization and building new capabilities within the company. And will not benefit to Polish industry at all, just a small amount of money in taxes if it brings few new contracts.
                    You're talking about production while I was talking about maintenance.
                    AW could offer us 100% tech transfer which means full documentation. With source code we could perhaps integrate our AA missiles (if it's even possible that is). It would also greatly lower the costs of foreign armament integration. We would not be dependant on AW in any way.

                    Originally posted by cahiri0 View Post
                    Comparison:
                    A129/AH-64E: Empty weight 2530kg/5165kg, max take.off weight 4600kg/10433kg, Max speed (279km/h)/(293km/h), curise speed (229 km/h)/(263km/h), range 510km/476km, climb rate (10.2m/s)/(12,7m/s), service ceiling (4,725 m)/(6,401 m),
                    Armament:
                    A129/AH-64E: M197 20mm cannon (500rounds)/M230 30mm cannon (1200rounds), (8x AGM-114 Hellfire/BMG-71 TOW)/(16x AGM-114 Hellfire/ 8x AGM-114 and 2x M261 Rocket pods with 19xHydra-70 each)
                    /AH-1Z got me on those AIM-9 sidewinders on wingtips.
                    Don't know the source of these but there numbers are some nice tables on Dziennikzbrojny.pl site (in Polish) along with some nice history of A129. As you can see, differences between A129 International and T129 are significant. I am unsure which is being offered to us though. According to mentioned source, max speed went from 277,8 hm/h to 288 km/h, climb rate from 9,9 m/s to 13,3 m/s and range from 504 km to 561 km. With service ceiling of 6096 m, AH-64E doesn't out that much when it comes to performance.
                    Armament is obviously less impressive on T129 but I think that for the price it is still a good offer especially that it can stay in air longer (almost 100 km longer range).


                    Originally posted by cahiri0 View Post
                    UAV's for A129 are a plan for next 5 years, When AH-64E has them today, and is equipped in Link-16. And let's talk about price.
                    Yeah, forgot about that. Shame though.
                    According to THIS A129 is fully compatible with Link 16 via MIDS-LVT terminal.

                    Originally posted by cahiri0 View Post
                    Indonesia ordered 8 AH-64E for $295,8 million (source), this gives ~$37 million for one helicopter. Turkey got deal for 51 T129s for $1,2 billion which gives $23,5 million for one A129, but the whole program is estimated by Turkish authorities to cost $3,2 billion. does it include 40 optional helicopters? hard to tell, my point is, to deliver ordnance carried by 1 AH-64E you will need 2 A129/T129s so ultimately it will be $10 million more expensive than getting one AH-64E. But this is only estimation.
                    As you said above, Turkey is a bad example (and sadly the only one) - they had half of their country integrated into this heli. We sadly have no time for that and I doubt we have the tech (still, with documentation we could have some fun with it during MLU).
                    Maybe it would be $10 million more expensive to buy but would AH-64 still be cheaper to run? That's why I think AH-1Z wouldn't be a bad idea either. Especially that it's not that popular in Europe any more which may give us some advantage in negotiations. And you can carry 2 $700m Sidewinders on wingtips!
                    Last edited by b3rs; 26-04-2015, 02:51 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by b3rs View Post
                      You're talking about production while I was talking about maintenance.
                      AW could offer us 100% tech transfer which means full documentation. With source code we could perhaps integrate our AA missiles (if it's even possible that is). It would also greatly lower the costs of foreign armament integration. We would not be dependant on AW in any way.
                      Yes i misread your post, technology transfer is usually associated with procurement deal.
                      Nah AW won't do this, beside it is not like we would need them, PZL Świdnik is their plant so if we put an order there AW will happily comply. Beside who other could do it? Some company from Europe? Israelis? Beside PZL Świdnik, and perhaps PZL Mielec no one in Poland could do it fast enough.

                      Originally posted by b3rs View Post
                      Don't know the source of these but there numbers are some nice tables on Dziennikzbrojny.pl site (in Polish) along with some nice history of A129. As you can see, differences between A129 International and T129 are significant. I am unsure which is being offered to us though. According to mentioned source, max speed went from 277,8 hm/h to 288 km/h, climb rate from 9,9 m/s to 13,3 m/s and range from 504 km to 561 km. With service ceiling of 6096 m, AH-64E doesn't out that much when it comes to performance.
                      Armament is obviously less impressive on T129 but I think that for the price it is still a good offer especially that it can stay in air longer (almost 100 km longer range).
                      A129 and T129 differ, my comparison was based on A129 international which most likely will be offered by AW. T129 is a separate matter. That is the problem, we don't know what is on the table at this point, so A129 international it is until AW and TAI decide who offers what, and on what terms.
                      AH-64E tech spec is compilation from Boeing site, and various aviation oriented websites. Sadly Boeing does not have all those specs on their site. So I had to support myself with other sources.

                      Originally posted by b3rs View Post
                      Yeah, forgot about that. Shame though.
                      According to THIS A129 is fully compatible with Link 16 via MIDS-LVT terminal.
                      The key sentence in this document is
                      " Furthermore, engineering studies have been carried out for integration of MIDS-LVT on various Army and Navy helicopter platforms (i.e., A-129, NH-90 and NH-101)."
                      Beside this paper being from 2007, I am unable to find any info that MIDS-LVT is used on any A129 version. If someone more informed could shed some light on this matter.

                      Originally posted by b3rs View Post
                      As you said above, Turkey is a bad example (and sadly the only one) - they had half of their country integrated into this heli. We sadly have no time for that and I doubt we have the tech (still, with documentation we could have some fun with it during MLU).
                      Maybe it would be $10 million more expensive to buy but would AH-64 still be cheaper to run? That's why I think AH-1Z wouldn't be a bad idea either. Especially that it's not that popular in Europe any more which may give us some advantage in negotiations. And you can carry 2 $700m Sidewinders on wingtips!
                      Sadly Turkey is only example we have.
                      As for maintenance cost, if compared 1 AH-64E with 1 A129 it might be true, but remember that ordnance that can be delivered by AH-64E has to be carried by two A129s, so will it still be as cheap to run fleet twice the size?
                      Basically you will have cheaper to run helicopter, but will spend twice as much on training for pilots and technicians who need to be payed, and as military personnel require quarters for them and their families, you will require double the number of support vehicles which will consume twice the the amount of fuel. You will require twice the hangar space, You don't want brand new ~$20-30 million helicopters to stay outside all the time.
                      Most people who tell "hell get as much cheap lighter helicopters we can" usually overlook those aspects, for them most important factor is price, and how many helicopters we can get. But it is about balancing advantages, shortcomings, and overall cost. Those are hidden costs, and in this department AH-64E will be more logical solution and will gain advantage with every year passing, especially with Polish military limited numbers. We need as much firepower per serviceman/servicewoman we can get. And back to the Turkey because it is quite a comparison, they can get twice the number of lighter helicopters carrying half the armament of larger, heavier helicopter. Its not a problem when You have 662719 military personnel, compared to 120000 in Poland.
                      Last edited by cahiri0; 26-04-2015, 01:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cahiri0 View Post
                        Sadly Turkey is only example we have.
                        As for maintenance cost, if compared 1 AH-64E with 1 A129 it might be true, but remember that ordnance that can be delivered by AH-64E has to be carried by two A129s, so will it still be as cheap to run fleet twice the size?
                        Basically you will have cheaper to run helicopter, but will spend twice as much on training for pilots and technicians who need to be payed, and as military personnel require quarters for them and their families, you will require double the number of support vehicles which will consume twice the the amount of fuel. You will require twice the hangar space, You don't want brand new ~$20-30 million helicopters to stay outside all the time.
                        Most people who tell "hell get as much cheap lighter helicopters we can" usually overlook those aspects, for them most important factor is price, and how many helicopters we can get. But it is about balancing advantages, shortcomings, and overall cost. Those are hidden costs, and in this department AH-64E will be more logical solution and will gain advantage with every year passing, especially with Polish military limited numbers. We need as much firepower per serviceman/servicewoman we can get. And back to the Turkey because it is quite a comparison, they can get twice the number of lighter helicopters carrying half the armament of larger, heavier helicopter. Its not a problem when You have 662719 military personnel, compared to 120000 in Poland.
                        Unfortunately, we can't really make a cost comparison. For the record, I believe the project cost is 3.3 billion for 51 helis. Due to the nature of the project, this number includes technology transfer (rotor and blade manufacturing, all power transmission, etc) and other integration work (LHTEC engine integration, etc) which makes comparison a bit harder. Maybe, we can comment on this later if/when there is an offer on the table.

                        For us, the T129 is definitely a better option because of geography and mission requirements. We do not have to worry about hordes of Russian tanks rolling in from Caucasia. Mission objectives are different as well. These helis will heavily be used for counter-terrorism operations chasing 5-10 people groups in a very hostile (high and hot) environment. We need the numbers. So your requirements look fundamentally different to me and this puts T129 at a disadvantage from the beginning.

                        Another issue is geopolitics. Polish and US relations/interests are converging pretty fast due to what has happened in Ukraine. The US has a lot of potential to sell military hardware in your region and she will do so. It would be naive to think that Turkey could compete against the US with the T129 that uses LHTEC engines... Turkish and US relations are different. Short term pain is worth it when you consider the long-term gains in the region from a Turkish perspective. You don't have to worry about this. You probably never will...

                        Bottom line, a Turkish involvement in this tender would be rather symbolic.

                        Cheers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          @deli_dumrul
                          You are partially right about comparison, people supporting A129 in Kruk procurement program usually use so called "polonisation" argument. Claiming that AW will be more willing than Boeing, Bell, or Airbus to allow integration of requested weapon systems, and components made in Poland. Yes it can't be compared with new engines, but still is rather long wish list including source codes.
                          Not to mention that Turkey is always dropped as an example, I do agree that we have different needs, that is why personally I'd opt for AH-64E, or AH-1Z.
                          And because of schedule of this tender it is almost certain that new helicopter will be off the shelf solution.

                          We'll see what exactly will be Turkish involvement in this tender, basically it is between AW and TAI. They have to analyze requirements, and decide whether A129 or T129 fulfills them best.

                          As for Polish-US relations yes it is important factor, but when it comes to fulfilling requirements H225M proves that offer has to be good in the first place. So I'd wait with drawing conclusions, plus Poland recently did something unexpected and decided to acquire license for K9 chassis from Samsung Techwin for Krab self propelled howitzer system.

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                          • #14
                            Poland will buy 250 semi-auto sniper rifles in 7.62x51 NATO.

                            http://www.iu.wp.mil.pl/userfiles/fi...karab_2804.pdf

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                            • #15
                              Lt Gen Terras, Commander of EDF: "Baltic states should enhance defence cooperation with Poland".

                              No article in english, use this google-translate instead.
                              http://translate.google.com/translat...ga&prev=search

                              A very fine idea, I hope it develops into something meaningful. Poland and Finland are biggest powers in region and still take national security seriously, we should cooperate more. Last year Poland provided AA battery for Steadfast Javelin, I hope to see even more troops in training on Estonian soil. Maybe you can take your Leos for a ride next time.

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