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Does anti-aircraft artillery still matter?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Orca View Post
    During the Falklands War the Argies managed to shoot down two British Harriers + two of their own aircraft with 35mm Oerlikons, which were also used in direct fire mode against British ground troops creating a bunch of casualties, but that didn't stop the Brit's from retaking the islands and capturing the Argentine guns and their radars.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_GDF#History
    Yes. That's one point we haven't discussed. AAA still matters at least as anti infantry / support fire weapon. Nobody likes, be it on foot or in a APC/IFV (except if HIFV that can take the punishment) the heavy rate of fire, range and caliber, quick traverse speed, exellent elevation angle of AAA
    A gun lobbing 2000 rounds/min of 23 mm HEI-T on an infantry squad at 2 km is enough to waste your day

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    • #77
      Guns work fine against an enemy that does NOT have smart bombs and long range missiles. And jets are not state of the art. Mostly in the west you see auto-cannon (35MM is common in NATO). Does the west even have any long range anti-aircraft guns, or is it all missiles today??

      One good thing about the China and Russia. Those got some nice AAA system. If warfare teaches you one thing. You run of missiles very fast in actually combat. I don't think NATO have shot down an enemy plane since the end of Vietnam. The British shot down a lot of enemy planes in the Battle for the Falkland Island. But that was a non-NATO operation.

      Naval ships in western NATO nations. Seem to love the 76mm fast firing gun against missiles and planes. And the good old fashion 5 inch naval gun can shoot down a lot.

      On land base system. Who still have modern heavy AAA and how good is it??

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      • #78
        French air defense is based on mistral SHORAD for the army, then air force add a layer near critical area with Crotale and Mamba (ground based Aster 30).
        We have some VAB with 20mm gun and VBCI with 25mm gun for fire support, they can make life painfull for an helicopter but against jet...
        Waiting for 40mm CTA air defense system on the same truck then CESAR. It will be a good idea.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by urielventis View Post
          French air defense is based on mistral SHORAD for the army, then air force add a layer near critical area with Crotale and Mamba (ground based Aster 30).
          We have some VAB with 20mm gun and VBCI with 25mm gun for fire support, they can make life painfull for an helicopter but against jet...
          Waiting for 40mm CTA air defense system on the same truck then CESAR. It will be a good idea.
          What's the fire rate on that CTA cannon? Oerlikon's 35mm AA gun fire airburst munition at 1000 rpm.

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          • #80
            Only 200rpm on IFV version, but Thales announced an optimized version for anti air warfare: http://www.opex360.com/2012/06/14/ra...nne-de-thales/ in french. It also have six Starstreak missile.
            The anti aircraft shell is an airburst with 200 tungsten pellets inside.

            I agree that the Oerlikon is a beast. 1000rpm in burst mod with air burst will saturate the area.

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            • #81


              Originally posted by urielventis View Post
              I agree that the Oerlikon is a beast. 1000rpm in burst mod with air burst will saturate the area.
              Here's some rather new(september) info on the Oerlikon gun and its Ahead ammunition.
              http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/m...um_Calibre.pdf

              Our navy use it. It can fire single shots, 200 rpm and 1000 rpm. Can be controlled by EO/FLIR or Radar.
              Last edited by The Dane; 12-12-2016, 11:55 AM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by The Dane View Post



                Here's some rather new(september) info on the Oerlikon gun and its Ahead ammunition.
                http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/m...um_Calibre.pdf

                Our navy use it. It can fire single shots, 200 rpm and 1000 rpm. Can be controlled by EO/FLIR or Radar.
                Is that the Absalon? A great gun on great ship!

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by DasVivo View Post
                  Afghanistan in the 80s which is probably one of if not the best example of a modern fighting force encountering state of the art SAMs (Manpads in this case) had heavy Machine Guns/Cannons be responsible for most of the Aircraft/Helicopters the Soviets/Afghans lost........
                  Yes but during afghan war the terrain was exremly favorable for use of such systems. It was not unusual for the pilot to find out the gun shoting at him is actualy above him on mountain side not on the ground.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Asheren View Post

                    Yes but during afghan war the terrain was exremly favorable for use of such systems. It was not unusual for the pilot to find out the gun shoting at him is actualy above him on mountain side not on the ground.
                    No disagreement, but that also somewhat just reinforces my point... Different operations different threats and requirements.... That and no matter the sophistication of your countermeasures, AAA generally requires the same old traditional responses.. whether that be flight profile or armor

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                    • #85
                      The Indian army likes to use shilkas against bunkers . I assumed that it was due to it's high rate of fire which suppresses its occupants . However the main reason seems to be it's good optics and accuracy enable it to put shots through the slits from far away .

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by karnflakes View Post
                        The Indian army likes to use shilkas against bunkers . I assumed that it was due to it's high rate of fire which suppresses its occupants . However the main reason seems to be it's good optics and accuracy enable it to put shots through the slits from far away .
                        Whilst Optics might be good, I would have imagine dispersal would exist to a certain degree that in the role of AAA would assist in scoring a hit on a small target in the air.... Though I guess with high enough ROF you only need a 'few' precise hits

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Mordoror View Post

                          Yes. That's one point we haven't discussed. AAA still matters at least as anti infantry / support fire weapon. Nobody likes, be it on foot or in a APC/IFV (except if HIFV that can take the punishment) the heavy rate of fire, range and caliber, quick traverse speed, exellent elevation angle of AAA
                          A gun lobbing 2000 rounds/min of 23 mm HEI-T on an infantry squad at 2 km is enough to waste your day
                          It says for every three rounds of frag-HE-T, Shilka normally had one API-T loaded, which had
                          Armour penetration (at angle of hit 30° and range of 1200 m): 10 mm armour plate
                          , so as you said, a sad day for many APC...
                          Last edited by Piirka; 22-12-2016, 01:33 AM.

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                          • #88
                            Talking about AA guns for ground support.. Would love to see the target area, when all 3 of these babies light up. Must be brutal...(25mm Gatlings)

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DasVivo View Post

                              No disagreement, but that also somewhat just reinforces my point... Different operations different threats and requirements.... That and no matter the sophistication of your countermeasures, AAA generally requires the same old traditional responses.. whether that be flight profile or armor
                              I remember the soviets used shilkas in afghanistan a lot for ground action, for example escorting convoys, because no other weapon system could traverse so high up to engage mujahedin ambushing from the higher elevation in the mountainous area. Think I've seen some videos of those employed in Syria for urban warfare to fire at enemies high in the buildings.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Piirka View Post

                                I remember the soviets used shilkas in afghanistan a lot for ground action, for example escorting convoys, because no other weapon system could traverse so high up to engage mujahedin ambushing from the higher elevation in the mountainous area. Think I've seen some videos of those employed in Syria for urban warfare to fire at enemies high in the buildings.

                                Indeed, and subsequently they have been utilized in Grozny etc and other urban battles for similar reasons.... The downside being that as they were never designed for it, armor is extremely limited (hence the benefits rolling over into successor platforms like BMPT which makes sure to combine firepower/elevation and armor)

                                In regards to your comment before about the Shilkas ammunition load, you wouldn't necessarily want to have to try, but I bet it could ruin many a tanks day also with that firepower, not necessarily total kill, but between optics, vision ports, the barrel etc of a tank I bet you could do a lot of damage....

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